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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#381

Post by zbuc »

rmc wrote: post #203
danssig wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of western Europe, if not all, gets at least 4 weeks vacation. 40 hours is a bit more demanding but 42 is pretty common.

All of the EU gets 4 weeks. It's called the European Working Time Directive. That'd give you 20 days paid annual leave. Some member states have higher. (I think) all member states have paid public holidays aswell. All of the EU gets 48 hours maximum working time per week, that's the European Working Time Directive again. The UK has a sort of an opt-out to it. Some member states have a lower maximum. Fun Fact: I'm fro…

I have 10 in the US. You lucky bastard.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#382

Post by aaronblohowiak »

randomdata wrote: post #199
throwaway1979 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sir ... I tip my hat to you. Can you elaborate on #3? Are you in the US? Did you move to a cheaper location? I don't understand how the future's going to play out with respect to retirement. I'm in my early 30s if that helps. I looked for a financial planner ... but could not find any in my area. Just financial advisers wanting to sell me the latest "product". Any books/tips? Funny story: my fiance and I got went to…

I'm beginning to suspect the math is so bleak that it isn't possible :( I'm starting to come to that conclusion myself. They say you need $1M to retire today. With inflation, we're probably talking at least $2M by the time I'm ready to retire. Given that you and I are of similar age, these are critical times for compounding our retirement funds. With so little investment opportunity right now for the average investor…

> it seems like the only hope of seeing a decent retirement for the average person without a lot of capital to start with

not on a risk-adjusted basis

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#383

Post by pmjordan »

jessriedel wrote: post #320
manmal wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not considered being fired by you ;) This particular layoff was a strategic decision - and a bad one too, they are now advertising in TV that Siemens is a good place for IT folks.

The point is that the existence of layoffs does not rebut the claim that programmers cannot be fired (individually) in Austria.

Or the claim that it's a financial burden. Layoffs involve expensive severance payments.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#384

Post by jshen »

luser001 wrote: post #350
jshen wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, do you hear yourself? The OP said "under no circumstances will I work overtime". Someone says that he really meant "i will sometimes do overtime". I said, "he could have said I will rarely do overtime, only for exceptional cases". And you claim that this isn't more precise? Did you pass reading comprehension in grade school?

Ok, my phrasing was incorrect. I meant to say "how is it precise enough." You get the last word (if you choose to reply to this).

Gotcha, and I agree with you on that. Like I said in my comment, this is exactly what I say in interviews, and I haven't had a problem with it yet. If I do then I'll find a new job. After a little practice you can get a feel for reading people and companies and you can usually tell if you are on the same page. I also always ask how many hours on average people work per week, or something along those lines.

Also, I absolutely would not tell a company that I want to work for that "under no circumstances" will I work any overtime. Nor will I hire someone that says such a thing.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#385

Post by danssig »

Apreche wrote: post #219
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

Oh, I want to add one more thing, since everyone seems to like my comment. You can pay me too much money. If you give me say, a million dollars a year, I will work for one year, and then you will never see me again. I will go home and live my life as I please, and only code what I want to code. The code may or may not make money. I may or may not try. If I work at a startup that cashes out big, then I will travel the…

I disagree. Why do we have this idea that one needs to be at a company for 20 years? I'd love to see some company pay a million dollars a year to all employees and have a limit of, say, 5 years for working there. It would be interesting to see what effect that would have when every employee knew after 5 years of working there they never had to enter the rat race again if they didn't want to.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#386

Post by kalininalex »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #270
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

> "Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you won't be out of business in any short span of time and you won't bounce a check. Also, under no circumstances do I work more than 40 hours a week." There was a time, after the crash of 2000, when programmers actually had a difficult time finding work. It doesn't matter what the career, training or job, this stuff goes in cycles,…

Great observation. It's very easy to forget after a year or so of good times that bad times ever happened. Yet, this too shall pass. The key component of my philosophy is to always provide more value than paid for, be it 10 days of vacation, or 30. This will create consistent demand for one's services negating the impact of economic cycles.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#387

Post by danssig »

njharman wrote: post #223

$$ gets you more programmers, not necessarily good ones. Just look at dot com era (if you're old enough to remember). Tons of money, thrown at everybody and anybody. The vast majority of which were not "good" programmers. Many weren't even programmers just good at faking it, till they made it.

More money may not get you good programmers but below market rate will absolutely get you crappy ones.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#388

Post by danssig »

snowwrestler wrote: post #119

> There are currently 22% more open job positions in this area compared to last year If there is an overall shortage of qualified developers, paying more to hire great developers does not fix it. All it does is raise the salaries of the existing qualified developers. That is fine and great for them, but it doesn't solve the shortage.

If you raise the salaries enough, people from other locations will move to take advantage of the opportunity.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#389

Post by Iv »

vetler wrote: post #74
Iv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually since I am freelancing, I have doubled my revenue. There are interesting job offers, for projects I would love to be part of, as a lone freelancer cannot easily tackle big projects, but the pay is really to low compared to what I can earn independently.

Consulting in general is a money machine. Freelance consulting even more so, but I suppose it requires you to have the right network.

I used to think that I would spend half of my time networking. That's what happened the first few months but then I realised that if I continued to network that much, I would have far too much work.

If you manage to kickstart good relationships with clients, that brings other contracts without efforts.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#390

Post by Iv »

skerrit_bwoy wrote: post #314
Iv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually since I am freelancing, I have doubled my revenue. There are interesting job offers, for projects I would love to be part of, as a lone freelancer cannot easily tackle big projects, but the pay is really to low compared to what I can earn independently.

What do you get paid? I'm curious about this "consulting money machine." Most contracts I see are $50-$75/hr with no bennies. Not exactly stacking mad chips.

I'm also in this ballpark (300-600€ / day) which in the end amounts to twice the monthly salary I used to have.
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