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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#341

Post by its_so_on »

kamaal wrote: post #331
potatolicious wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really disagree with the notion of the post here, and I think this part really nails why: > "Thing is, I'm never looking at my watch because I enjoy what I do." So do I. In fact, I love what I do. I'd be extremely disappointed if I had to stop going to work. But it isn't the only thing I enjoy . You want stable hours and liberal time off because there is more enjoyment to your life than writing code and creating so…

Exactly, One more thing that I didn't like about it was the feeling that its OK for the employer to overwork you and then not compensate it, under the pretext of 'interesting work'. This is an old plan used by most companies. I like doing what I do, but I would love to something else if I had the money to free me up. For most people, their area of least incompetence becomes their passion.

The plan is a lot older than you think. For millennia, people have married above their station by being interesting.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#342

Post by luser001 »

Apreche wrote: post #328
luser001 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

There is probably some circumstance I would work a little extra. Seriously, you want ever comment on every blog to be written like a legal contract or a game rulebook? I wasn't about to devote an entire paragraph covering every possible scenario where I may or may not work more or less hours. You get the idea.

Umm, I was supporting your phrasing. :) i.e., that most people get that you will work extra hours when truly required.

And that even a supposedly more precise phrasing suffers from the problem that the listener may not interpret the words the way the speaker intended them to be.

I personally feel that a categorical statement such as yours is less amenable to misunderstanding than a equivocating one. Thanks.

Anyway, we're generating heat rather light in this subthread.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#343

Post by eli_gottlieb »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #125
Mikushi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or there is a shortage of developers in your area. My previous company was offering competitive salaries, good environment, challenging work, and we had trouble filling position with decent developers...

Raise salaries and attract developers from outside your area. The problem was that you weren't actually offering "competitive" salaries, you were merely offering what may have been standard for your area but no longer was sufficient, by your own report.

Raise salaries and attract developers from outside your area.

Admittedly, your local real-estate market might be too wound-up (think NYC, Bay Area, Boston, or LA) for raising salaries to do anything but raise land-rents.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#344

Post by skerrit_bwoy »

kamaal wrote: post #331
potatolicious wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really disagree with the notion of the post here, and I think this part really nails why: > "Thing is, I'm never looking at my watch because I enjoy what I do." So do I. In fact, I love what I do. I'd be extremely disappointed if I had to stop going to work. But it isn't the only thing I enjoy . You want stable hours and liberal time off because there is more enjoyment to your life than writing code and creating so…

Exactly, One more thing that I didn't like about it was the feeling that its OK for the employer to overwork you and then not compensate it, under the pretext of 'interesting work'. This is an old plan used by most companies. I like doing what I do, but I would love to something else if I had the money to free me up. For most people, their area of least incompetence becomes their passion.

I'll add that if you LOVE doing what you do for 40 years, straight through retirement, you are one odd duck indeed. The idea of "passion for work" is a power play to get folks to put in more for less. Don't get it twisted.

Furthermore, workaholism is for people who don't understand what it means to be human. Steve Jobs was a sucker - almost as much as his followers who didn't realize that he was.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#345

Post by dreamdu5t »

smiler wrote: post #196
PaulHoule wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely hear from startups who are hiring and will pay O.K. but it seems to me that for every startup that pays, there are 3-5 that won't. I get myself fired up on this issue because I hear from enough companies that I need to quickly qualify opportunities. I'm a curious and generous person, so I'm inclined to listen to these people, but I don't have the time.

Some startups probably just can't afford a high salary...

If they needed one then they screwed up their business plan.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#346

Post by nobleach »

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

What's ironic, is that I'm reading your response, and I'm thinking of how unreasonable it sounds. But after taking a step back and thinking about the symbiotic relationship companies SHOULD have with their employees, this reminds me an awful lot like the demands I've seen from most jobs. They'd like to offer you 2 weeks vacation, a week sick time (because we all choose how long we'll be sick) and if they bounce a check? Bummer, you can either go back out and seek employment or hope things get better.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#347

Post by pmjordan »

manmal wrote: post #231
pmjordan wrote: post #13

Some context/perspective on the Austrian employment situation: * Salaries are typically quoted per month, but there is a bonus of 2 months's salary paid per year, so yearly gross is 14 x monthly. The bonus is taxed at a lower marginal rate (6%, no social security contribution, IIRC, vs 37.5% lowest marginal rate). * There is no fixed minimum wage in Austria. Instead, there is a collective bargaining system, which set…

Austrian (currently self-employed) developer here. You are mostly right, except that: Employees are not impossible to fire, that's a myth. There was this big Siemens layoff some years ago where several hundred developer lost their job, just because Siemens decided they are not into software anymore. Also, it is common to pressure people into signing mutual "job quit contracts" (don't know a better word). How did you…

Veering into the crash barrier of off-topicness, but...

How did you get screwed in Austria?

It's hard to overstate how much the SVA (the social security provider for self-employed people) annoys me. The amount you pay them in theory depends on your earnings[1] but in practice how much you pay right now is linked to how much you earned 2 years ago: They assume your profits will go up 8% each year, so for the current year, you pay ((profits 2 years ago * 1.08²) * social security rate) + (difference to what you underpaid 2 years ago).

So if your income is unusually high one year, you pay social security as if you earned the usual amount, which means your profit is artificially high, and thus you pay a lot of tax. Then, 2 years later, you have to pay the difference of what you should have paid in the year you earned lots. Conversely, if you're having a bad year for whatever reason, you have to pay the same amount you usually would, even though you're earning very little. So the worst situation is if you earn a lot and then 2 years later earn very little: you pay lots of tax in the "good" year and get stuffed for social security in the bad year.

This is exactly my situation right now: in 2010 I decided I'd need some runway for our startup so I took on lots and lots of contract work. In 2011 and 2012 I've mostly been working on the startup, so I'm only doing maintenance work for existing contract customers. All of my contract revenue this year has been going straight into the SVA. The SVA bill is more than the rest of my cost of living put together.

And yes, back in 2010 I did try to increase my SVA payments because I knew this would happen, but they wouldn't let me.

Of course employees simply do not have this problem: even if their income fluctuates like crazy (seasonal workers etc.), every month they pay a percentage of the exact amount they earned. Yet self employed people are the ones whose income is most likely to fluctuate.

[1] 7.5% for health insurance, ~17.5% for pension, ~1% other - so this is quite a lot of money, and unlike tax there's no free earning threshold. In fact, it's the opposite: if you earn below around €550 p.m., you owe as much as if you earned €550.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#348

Post by reinhardt »

mryan wrote: post #97
skrebbel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! This is nearly a 180 degree opposite in the Netherlands. Companies can't find the talent they need inside (because they pay them too little, but ok), so they try to attract foreigners. Foreign "knowledge workers" also get tax benefits for the first many years, and many employers (particularly consultancies and larger OEMs) have people specialized in getting foreigners a worker's visa.

Ah, the "30% ruling". For those that haven't heard of this wonderful piece of legislation if means you only pay tax on 70% of your salary if you qualify as a knowledge migrant. Yes, you get 30% of your salary tax free. There are also other benefits, e.g. you don't pay income tax on dividends from your home country. It's not just consultancies and OEMs that will help apply for this - I work at a startup and I am class…

Sounds tempting.. is there a hidden jobs link in the site somewhere? ;)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#349

Post by xnxn »

jshen wrote: post #323
luser001 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

LOL, do you hear yourself? The OP said "under no circumstances will I work overtime". Someone says that he really meant "i will sometimes do overtime". I said, "he could have said I will rarely do overtime, only for exceptional cases". And you claim that this isn't more precise? Did you pass reading comprehension in grade school?

Check your tone, please. I can't downvote, but I don't want to see comments like yours on HN.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#350

Post by luser001 »

jshen wrote: post #323
luser001 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

LOL, do you hear yourself? The OP said "under no circumstances will I work overtime". Someone says that he really meant "i will sometimes do overtime". I said, "he could have said I will rarely do overtime, only for exceptional cases". And you claim that this isn't more precise? Did you pass reading comprehension in grade school?

Ok, my phrasing was incorrect. I meant to say "how is it precise enough." You get the last word (if you choose to reply to this).
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