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Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

prospectmagazine.co.uk

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Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#471

Post by namaria »

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

Using debased money (does the paper in the note have any value?) is already submitting to paying seignorage to the issuing authority. There's not escaping it unless you sit on the top of that food chain.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#472

Post by vidarh »

noodlesUK wrote: post #265
tyfon wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children and old people here all use cards or apps. And derisking is illegal, so you have to provide a bank account and cards to anyone who wants. The high risk customers just need more follow-up on terms of AML.

Where are you based where derisking is illegal? Here in the UK it makes the news fairly frequently when someone notable becomes unbanked because of CIFAS or SARs or similar. Also, I wasn’t able to get a debit card until I was 12, but perhaps that has changed over the past few decades.

I'm in the UK, and while regular banks don't generally provide debit cards at low age, providers like Go Henry specializes in accounts for kids with built in parental controls from age 6. They are effectively prepaid visa cards with app access for parents to top up instantly.

With respect to closing accounts, there are extremely few cases where people can be denied a basic account with the largest banks, but most smaller banks are not required to provide a basic account, and other account types can be denied at will, and most people have other accounts types (there are something like 7 million basic accounts).

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#473

Post by vidarh »

Ekaros wrote: post #394
tyfon wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Norway. My kids got a card at around 5, but they are older now. Not with visa/mastercard of course :)

Hmm in Finland it seems there is "Basic" card. Which I think is technically just more limited VISA debit card. Preventing such things as overdrafts.

Every EU country is required to have laws providing for some level of basic account.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#474

Post by Alifatisk »

xadhominemx wrote: post #379
Alifatisk wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I don’t want to walk around with my valuables on me, I just bring a small sum enough to satisfy my groceries. I do this especially when it’s dark outside and I have to go out to shop, this way, I don’t lose anything significant if I get robbed. Another good reason is that some shops have to pay a fee for being able to accept digital transactions, for some shops, the fee is quite a lot. So paying with cash i…

You don't like to bring your valuables with you, so you bring cash instead of a PIN-protected debit card?

I'd rather loose 10 bucks than letting them take my debit card. PIN is not required until a certain amount.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#475

Post by Alifatisk »

IshKebab wrote: post #443
Alifatisk wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how?

I will break it down: 1. You argue cashless is annoying because you have to remember your card/phone in addition to cash. 2. I countered that you could equally say that cash is bad because I have to remember cash in addition to my card/phone. Which makes them at worst equal. You just have to remember whichever one is accepted. 3. Except - as I stated and you highlighted - that is not really the case. Almost everywher…

I appreciate the break down.

I'll clear it up, cashless is annoying because instead of being able to walk outside with a couple of bills, I have to bring my whole phone or wallet with me because some vendors just don't accept cash. Sometimes I even prefer paying with cash because it helps the vendor avoid the fees they have to pay for each digital transaction.

It's got nothing to do with remembering.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#476

Post by ttoinou »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #446
ttoinou wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most economics consequences will never be measured ever

I think we’d be getting into something akin to “homeopathic” monetary theory with that line of reasoning…!

Do you only do stuff in life that you think will be able to measure a posteriori ?

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#477

Post by newaccount74 »

xadhominemx wrote: post #422
newaccount74 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My EU bank charges less than 1% currency exchange fee. US banks have charged me 5-8%. It's not the same.

No way a US bank charged you that amount unless you made the purchase in an esoteric fashion.

It was not a purchase, it was a money transfer. They converted it to EUR for me at really bad rates. It was not an explicit fee.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#478

Post by coldtea »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #138
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When a serious crime is committed you might be surprised how much the police can do to trace cash. Serial numbers in and out of ATMs and shops are tracked, and frequently your face is captured by cameras in stores, ATMs and vending machines. Which is neither here, not there. Cash is effectively anonymous for 99% of uses that don't involve "major crime". Your buying something is not logged anywhere, for example.

> Which is neither here, not there. Cash is effectively anonymous for 99% of uses that don't involve "major crime". Exactly. Almost all cash transactions remain anonymous because there's no criminal investigation involved. Most people are honest and just going about their business with friends and family. That's how it should be. A cost bar for tracing is a desirable feature for non-authoritarian societies. Digital c…

>Exactly. Almost all cash transactions remain anonymous because there's no criminal investigation involved.

It's disingenuous to even suggest that the traceability of cash transaction is even remotely close to that of credit cards and e-payments, and that what keeps them anonymous is that "there's no criminal investigation involved".

It's the exact opposite: cash transaction are anonymity friendly by nature, and only when there's a great need, and with quite an effort, like in a criminal investigation, are they attempted to be traced, and even there it's more difficult exacty because of the nature of cash making it more difficult.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#479

Post by nonrandomstring »

coldtea wrote: post #478
nonrandomstring wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is neither here, not there. Cash is effectively anonymous for 99% of uses that don't involve "major crime". Exactly. Almost all cash transactions remain anonymous because there's no criminal investigation involved. Most people are honest and just going about their business with friends and family. That's how it should be. A cost bar for tracing is a desirable feature for non-authoritarian societies. Digital c…

> Exactly. Almost all cash transactions remain anonymous because there's no criminal investigation involved. It's disingenuous to even suggest that the traceability of cash transaction is even remotely close to that of credit cards and e-payments, and that what keeps them anonymous is that "there's no criminal investigation involved". It's the exact opposite: cash transaction are anonymity friendly by nature, and onl…

That's exactly what I am saying. You are repeating my own argument back to me and labelling it "disingenuous". You've misunderstood something, somewhere. Do please read again with care.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#480

Post by IshKebab »

Alifatisk wrote: post #475
IshKebab wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will break it down: 1. You argue cashless is annoying because you have to remember your card/phone in addition to cash. 2. I countered that you could equally say that cash is bad because I have to remember cash in addition to my card/phone. Which makes them at worst equal. You just have to remember whichever one is accepted. 3. Except - as I stated and you highlighted - that is not really the case. Almost everywher…

I appreciate the break down. I'll clear it up, cashless is annoying because instead of being able to walk outside with a couple of bills, I have to bring my whole phone or wallet with me because some vendors just don't accept cash. Sometimes I even prefer paying with cash because it helps the vendor avoid the fees they have to pay for each digital transaction. It's got nothing to do with remembering.

> instead of being able to walk outside with a couple of bills, I have to bring my whole phone or wallet

That still doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 99% of people carry their phone with them pretty much everywhere so you're already a special snowflake.

Secondly, instead of "a couple of bills" you have to carry... a single card. Wow. So much hassle.

> Sometimes I even prefer paying with cash because it helps the vendor avoid the fees they have to pay for each digital transaction.

Yeah I have more sympathy with this but my feeling is vendors prefer cashless even with the fees - at least debit card fees (~0.5%), maybe not credit card fees - because cash isn't free. You have to spend time taking it to the bank, dealing with employee theft, etc. etc.

I feel like CBDCs could really help here.

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