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Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

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Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The age old conundrum: do people want what they get, or want what they get? Bezos got rich by buying labor from people for less it was worth, buying products for less than he could sell them, and using them both to create a new retail possibility that had some distinct benefits for a lot of us in our role as consumers. Oh, and AWS.

> Bezos got rich by buying labor from people for less it was worth, It was worth it to the people who took the jobs. > buying products for less than he could sell them, It was worth it to the people who sold it to Amazon. > and using them both to create a new retail possibility that had some distinct benefits for a lot of us in our role as consumers. I.e. not zero sum.

In the Prisoner's dilemma, defecting is "worth it" to both, but neither wants to be in a situation where the other will. It is easy to create equivalent scenarios — one does not even need to intend to do so, though of course the scenario from which the name comes, the situation was constructed to get an outcome that a powerful person wanted.

I think it is an important part of government, now that we know about Nash equilibria, to make sure that social and economic incentives are such that the collective good is aligned with the personal good. Neither Adam Smith and Karl Marx knew about these when they wrote their famous works, and (I think) just assumed these would be aligned.

This is not to say that Bezos did or didn't do anything in particular; while there are things I'd criticise Amazon for, I think roughly half the usual talking points are misunderstandings.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet you'll find their track record is a lot better than that of non-wealthy people. Most non-wealthy people I know do a lousy job of managing their finances. Frontline ran an episode a few years ago about 401k plans. They found that the wealthier the employee was, the better returns they had on the company 401k plan, despite the fact that the plan was identical for all the employees.

What a load of crap. Capitalism rewards existing capital. These people have opportunities 99.999999% will never have and still they got lucky. It's not about competence. It never is. Our current society rewards people that can lie, cheat and backstab while punishing those who care about anything other than profits. Just take a look at SBF and all the startup snake oil culture and it's clear they're not competent at a…

> What a load of crap. Capitalism rewards existing capital. These people have opportunities 99.999999% will never have and still they got lucky. It's not about competence. It never is.

It's about both. Musk, Bezos, Gates, they sure did all get lucky, but they also had skill. Skill alone isn't enough, because there are plenty of people with more skill. Luck alone also isn't enough, because that would give a distribution like lottery winners rather than repeated year-on-year growth.

> Our current society rewards people that can lie, cheat and backstab while punishing those who care about anything other than profits. Just take a look at SBF and all the startup snake oil culture and it's clear they're not competent at anything that helps society.

That's a terrible argument. SBF was convicted and is awaiting sentencing, that's not rewarding his misbehaviour; "startup snake oil culture" is tautologically going to be the specific set of bad actors without telling you anything about the relative frequency compared to all startup culture; and the Effective Altruism movement, which has inspired many startups in many areas, is collectively quite embarrassed by the association with SBF.

Also, to be competent at lying, cheating and backstabbing, necessarily means "knowing how to get away with it" rather than just "does it". Niccolo Machiavelli wrote a book about that 500 years ago, and Chanakya wrote a treatise also covering those things about 1800 years before Machiavelli.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the mischaracterization. Your position sounds interesting. When it comes to how the means of production should be structured, I envision a microkernel kind of model: enforce strict protections for worker pay, fairness, and whatever, and let the dice fall where they may. If it's worker collectives that result as the optimum, so be it.

No worries, most people see “anarchist” and think violence because propaganda works unfortunately. Anyway… “enforce strict protections for worker pay, fairness, and whatever“ This assumes a lot about the foundational structure of the environment these agents are operating within Unless you address who reaps the benefits of commerce then its just the same situation with slightly different tyrants What you describe is…

> Unless you address who reaps the benefits of commerce then its just the same situation with slightly different tyrants

That's something I hadn't thought of before. I suppose the part of the solution that addresses that would go hand-in-hand with TFA?

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the opposite argument about all the innovations, are and science, rich people have funded throughout history. Like what if Boeing didn't have all that money to dump into airplanes.

You are presupposing that such things would not have happened if the resource allocation decisions made by the wealthy had been made via some other (more democratic) means. There's not really much evidence to support that claim (though to be fair, not much evidence to refute it either).

That's my point, I don't think it seems to matter very much... Sometimes an individual has a good idea, sometimes we all come up with good ideas...

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It incentivizes people to find minerals that are valuable to the public. You can construct a hypothetical where someone gets lucky, and you can construct one where someone has reason to suspect the minerals are there and invests in the land.

That doesn’t answer any of my questions though on how the assignment of creation happens

Fair enough:

> Where was the act of creation that led to the increase of the value?

I'm not sure what you mean. Finding and extracting the asset adds a valuable, productive good to the economy (ignoring the enormous downside).

Are you debating the word choice, "creating"? I guess I don't see that discussion as valuable. Are you using the word choice to make a point? Make it!

> How did the land to acquire become yours?

You know how; again, please make your point?

> Most likely you didn’t discover the land, or do anything to find the materials (hiring people to do labor) so there’s no reason to think you should receive anything

Is all of this an argument for communism - the only ones who do anything valuable are the workers? I think that's as self-serving and narrow-minded as the ultra-capitalists who think only they matter. Providing and allocating capital is essential and a valuable skill; if it's easy for you, I'm sure you have plenty of it by now.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No worries, most people see “anarchist” and think violence because propaganda works unfortunately. Anyway… “enforce strict protections for worker pay, fairness, and whatever“ This assumes a lot about the foundational structure of the environment these agents are operating within Unless you address who reaps the benefits of commerce then its just the same situation with slightly different tyrants What you describe is…

> Unless you address who reaps the benefits of commerce then its just the same situation with slightly different tyrants That's something I hadn't thought of before. I suppose the part of the solution that addresses that would go hand-in-hand with TFA?

That’s the core conceit of anarcho syndicalism - to own the fruits of your own labor amd it not be intermediated or alienated by anything which reappropriates the capture of value.

So for example, if I own a table saw and my neighbor doesn’t and needed one for his labor, anarcho-syndicalism would suggest that if my saw was not planning to be used for a day, and he uses it for a day of creation, then the neighbor owns 100% of the resulting value. Much like if you rented a tool from Home Depot.

That makes sense and there’s no reason to believe that simply because I own a fallow tool, would benefit even equally from the labor.

Now look at how companies are created they are created in such a way that 100% of the value is retained by the organization and labor does not get to set its own rate. It Hass to simply be responsive to the rate offered by the organization decoupled from an alienated from, the labor that I’m inputting into it.

This isn’t accidental it’s a type of accounting that assumes labor inputs are not valued based on the productivity outcome they are simply, and only based on the relative bargaining power of the respective organizations.

This is why you see corporations, so aggressively fight the concept of collective bargaining because it creates the power dynamic that is actually appropriate for equitable relief, but reduces the amount that the more powerful organization can determine the relationship between the less powerful individual.

So anarcho-syndicalism is really about ensuring the individual worker cannot be put into a position of deprivation or suffering such that they have so little relative bargaining power in labor production that they can only choose between oppressive tyrants.

The key fallacy that people love here is that it’s all about relative deprivation so people have exceptionally varied views on what is considered oppressive or what a lifestyle would look like that is, let’s say inequitable.

Often times and you’ll see in many threads is the argument that “Actually we’re objectively more comfortable and well off that really, you shouldn’t be complaining about anything because you’re not starving to death”

The problem here is that it’s a completely separate argument than the argument for long term concentration of power, and who is actually controlling the economy, and has the ability to be flexible and create a life free of intermediaries that are confiscating your labor.

It all comes back to who has the power to set their own destiny in the economy, and the reality is, it’s always been small groups of exploiters who are able to do whatever they want to do because they’re taking advantage of the relative deprivation around them to not make things actively better for everybody. The people in situations like this, take no responsibility for their surroundings, their community their environment, they simply say how do I take advantage of this environment to my own best ends, and if that is the foundational conceit of a society, then you will not have a society that long and history tells us that society is built on this go through this political cycle, which so far has been basically every society in recorded history, unfortunately.

Anyway, there’s a lot of Intersectionality here with, for example, global finance, how this got really amplified after Bretton Woods two and the kind of fiatization, and then financialation of all possible value so there’s a giant kind of systematic thing here that is encoded in a lot of these as foundational assumptions in western capitalist economics.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t answer any of my questions though on how the assignment of creation happens

Fair enough: > Where was the act of creation that led to the increase of the value? I'm not sure what you mean. Finding and extracting the asset adds a valuable, productive good to the economy (ignoring the enormous downside). Are you debating the word choice, "creating"? I guess I don't see that discussion as valuable. Are you using the word choice to make a point? Make it! > How did the land to acquire become yours…

>the only ones who do anything valuable are the workers?

Correct! Because the act of creation is where value is created.

By definition capital does not create value, otherwise there would be no requirement to have labor to do the “transformation.”

Exactly to your point I have at points had quite a bit of money (not currently true). But it’s not from “capital growth” it’s from aggressively selling my labor and capturing the majority of my labor value. That said, if you were to compare the amount of value, I’ve created to the amount of money I received, It’s not even fucking close I’ve created 1000x more value than I have captured.

Why? because at the time that I did those deals, I was not in a powerful enough position to demand the value capture, because we’re stuck in a state where the vast majority of people need to debase themselves simply to survive.

Is that the type of system that has long term capacity for multigenerational equitable success? The answer is no and there’s no way you can slice that that makes it a yes.

If, however, your goal is a infinite race to the bottom for worker self exploitation, where people will literally destroy themselves in order to otherwise survive, based on the whims of hoarded capital owners arbitrary self inflated egos about how the world works. Having been a LP in a venture fund, a Director in a large public company, and a multitime start up founder I can guarantee this is exactly how it works. If that’s the world you want then we’re right on track.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough: > Where was the act of creation that led to the increase of the value? I'm not sure what you mean. Finding and extracting the asset adds a valuable, productive good to the economy (ignoring the enormous downside). Are you debating the word choice, "creating"? I guess I don't see that discussion as valuable. Are you using the word choice to make a point? Make it! > How did the land to acquire become yours…

>the only ones who do anything valuable are the workers? Correct! Because the act of creation is where value is created. By definition capital does not create value, otherwise there would be no requirement to have labor to do the “transformation.” Exactly to your point I have at points had quite a bit of money (not currently true). But it’s not from “capital growth” it’s from aggressively selling my labor and capturi…

Well, I wouldn't go nearly as far as you do, but I do appreciate your up front, clear argument for your point.

My perception is that the labor/capital allocation of return is far out of whack, due to a power imbalance.

But I feel you still aren't accounting for the value of capital. It's too easy an answer, intellectually, just to dismiss the whole thing and ignore the complication.

Production requires capital and labor. If I lend you my truck for your contracting service, shouldn't I get some return on that? What if you use my property to manufacture your skateboard (or whatever)? What if I give you some of my personal cash to hire workers, who then produce the skateboards, which you sell at a profit? I know these are simple, chosen examples, but where do you see the problem and how do you quantify appropriate returns?

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the only ones who do anything valuable are the workers? Correct! Because the act of creation is where value is created. By definition capital does not create value, otherwise there would be no requirement to have labor to do the “transformation.” Exactly to your point I have at points had quite a bit of money (not currently true). But it’s not from “capital growth” it’s from aggressively selling my labor and capturi…

Well, I wouldn't go nearly as far as you do, but I do appreciate your up front, clear argument for your point. My perception is that the labor/capital allocation of return is far out of whack, due to a power imbalance. But I feel you still aren't accounting for the value of capital. It's too easy an answer, intellectually, just to dismiss the whole thing and ignore the complication. Production requires capital and la…

No, you did nothing. Why would you get anything?

Holding keys to a cache of goods isn’t a skill.

Even if you claim to have thought really really hard about when to open the vault, the simple act of hoarding less, does not transform the goods into value.

The fact of hoarding, crowds out others use of the resource (reducing monetary velocity) so that means for people who want to make more, the choices made for when to open the vault are solely dependent on an mathematically unequitable distribution of the resultant created goods, in effect stealing directly from the people making value.

To be clear I’m not making the Labor Theory of Value argument - I’m simply demonstrating that by capitals own standard (increase in value based on capital labor mix) capital should get no excess return.

In fact the only argument capitialists have left is the contract and this is the Mises style MaximumCapitalist like Hans Hoppe. The argument goes that as long as a contract is signed, there cannot be anything unethical.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I wouldn't go nearly as far as you do, but I do appreciate your up front, clear argument for your point. My perception is that the labor/capital allocation of return is far out of whack, due to a power imbalance. But I feel you still aren't accounting for the value of capital. It's too easy an answer, intellectually, just to dismiss the whole thing and ignore the complication. Production requires capital and la…

No, you did nothing. Why would you get anything? Holding keys to a cache of goods isn’t a skill. Even if you claim to have thought really really hard about when to open the vault, the simple act of hoarding less, does not transform the goods into value. The fact of hoarding, crowds out others use of the resource (reducing monetary velocity) so that means for people who want to make more, the choices made for when to…

If we simplify away the personal issue of 'that's my truck; you'll have to pay me to use it' - we forget property rights and the psychological attachment to property, which I don't think is realistic or wise. (Also, I've recently been reading about 'cultural universals' - behaviors in all/most/many unrelated cultures through time and geography that are not biologically determined (as far as we know) - and property is one of them.)

I'm sure you know the next issue: How in your system is capital efficiently allocated? The issue is not hoarding (or not necessarily), it's natural scarcity of capital. How do we decide who gets to use the truck or the property, etc.? We know the capitalist method of allocation, which is rather productive in aggregate. Other methods have been unproductive, broadly speaking. First come first serve?

Also, the worker in your system gets all the return. Great. Now they have some money and they buy a truck. But now they own capital, the truck and hopefully some cash left over. Must they lend it to someone else without return? I dunno, but they might not be happy with that!

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