Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Want good programmers? Then pay them.

irrlicht3d.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 493 posts

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#311

Post by rdtsc »

3pt14159 wrote: post #296
Jabbles wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency. Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europe…

Interesting observation on how Americans optimize on living space. In a certain way I optimized for more time with my family. That comes as #1 priority. That means to thing: more vacation time and minimum commute to work (it take me 7 minutes to get to work). This mean reducing the living space and living in an older house. Granted I am not American by birth so perhaps it is something in the "blood" as they say.

Commutes and spending time in traffic is killing me. It is a dead, useless time, it creates stress and eats away at my life little by little every single day. If you spend 1.5 hours driving to work each way, add that time up for 10 years and you'll be shocked. If I wouldn't have a family I might think twice, but thinking that I could spend that time with them instead and being stuck on the freeway is unbearable to me.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#312

Post by tensor »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #254
tensor wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says "there is a shortage of oil" it is indeed true that oil costs skyrocket. It is also true that there is a shortage of oil. Shortages cause prices to increase, so much so that many people might not be able to afford a resource at all. It's a bit silly to say "there are no shortages! Only cheap consumers!"

The point here is that if you can't find programmers at a given salary, that salary is not in fact "competitive". You can decide that you can't afford actual competitive salaries, but calling your salary offers competitive when they are not will not help you in any way.

That is certainly true and I am not taking issue with that.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#313

Post by stephencanon »

freehunter wrote: post #263
stephencanon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, median compensation for really good doctors is vastly higher than median compensation for really good developers (in the US, anyway).

And really good doctors have really high bills to pay, as well. Not many developers need 8 years of the best schooling (one could make the argument that really good developers don't need any schooling, although it helps). Your point still stands, but student loans from med school are nothing to brush aside.

For really good specialists, student loans from med school are forgiven after 10 years of practice in academic medicine (which your residency counts towards), and often paid off for you if you go into private practice.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#314

Post by skerrit_bwoy »

Iv wrote: post #22
pavlov wrote: post #7

Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Probably not. Most programmers don't have any idea what software sells and how to sell it.

Actually since I am freelancing, I have doubled my revenue. There are interesting job offers, for projects I would love to be part of, as a lone freelancer cannot easily tackle big projects, but the pay is really to low compared to what I can earn independently.

What do you get paid? I'm curious about this "consulting money machine." Most contracts I see are $50-$75/hr with no bennies. Not exactly stacking mad chips.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#315

Post by skerrit_bwoy »

encoderer wrote: post #295

From my own experience of comparing my salary to those of friends in this industry, a lot of the discrepancy I see is largely based on very poor negotiation skills. In my case, my dad taught me how to negotiate salary on my first real job the way some guys dad's teach them how to box. I'm horrible in a fight but have proven to be a fairly good negotiator. And I can understand why people compare software engineers to…

Excellent points. Your typical doctor or lawyer is in a revenue generating function (doctors, in fact, are THE revenue generators of hospitals), and are therefore hired by other revenue generators and paid accordingly. But your typical programmer is writing some access database for the HR department to throw away in a year.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#316

Post by DominikR »

base698 wrote: post #255
DominikR wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r... San Francisco has more homicides with its population of ~800k than all of Austria combined with a population of 8,5 million.

Almost all of them are gang related--YAY drug war! As an upper middle class software engineer it's not really a good argument. Though the poverty and hopelessness can be a little sad if you walk through the bad areas.

I'm not saying life is bad in San Francisco, those statistics are just one part of the equasion. (the other parts: leaving behind family, friends, the good life I already have etc)

I am just against the notion that propping up that random incompetent guy (at least to some degree, so he wont roam the streets doing crazy stuff) is always a bad decision.

Preventing those people from failing miserably (and the negative side effects that come with it) - thats basically why we have a lower income over here.

And my pricetag for giving up all that is higher than just doubling my income.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#317

Post by zeroonetwothree »

3pt14159 wrote: post #296
Jabbles wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency. Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europe…

I know some engineers that get 30 days off (including federal holidays).

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#318

Post by manmal »

Jabbles wrote: post #284
cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

Interesting fact: Holidays do affect productivity - positively [1]. As an Austrian, I have to say that I can't imagine life without holidays. I'm self-employed now and don't go on vacation as much as employees, but I really need the occasional week off (also, I'm working way less hours). I once heard of a study that Europeans are as productive as Americans, although they work much less (could not find it, here is an article on the issue [2]).

My girlfriend is psychology student and they told her in a lecture that studies have shown that productivity ROI massively declines if working more than 30 hours per week (again, no citation, shame on me). That surely depends on whether you really do focussed work, or if you spend the workdays socializing at the water dispenser or coffee machine.

[1] http://www.vacationgap.com/ [2] http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/aug2009/gb2009...

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#319

Post by reinhardt »

3pt14159 wrote: post #296
Jabbles wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency. Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europe…

Does vacation here mean paid only or total? Personally I wouldn't mind that much if it meant paid only and I was allowed to take a pay cut in exchange for more (unpaid) vacation days.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#320

Post by jessriedel »

manmal wrote: post #280
spullara wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A layoff is not considered being fired.

It is not considered being fired by you ;) This particular layoff was a strategic decision - and a bad one too, they are now advertising in TV that Siemens is a good place for IT folks.

The point is that the existence of layoffs does not rebut the claim that programmers cannot be fired (individually) in Austria.
Post reply on HN