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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#291

Post by georgieporgie »

horsehead wrote: post #213
throwaway1979 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really glad you mentioned "cute little puzzles". I am sick of them. I'm not really sure who has sufficient time to spend blazing the employer with feats of their programming prowess (I was going to say only undergrads would do that - however, many undergrads in top programs have little time to bathe). If this was big companies being stupid, I'd get it. The HN crowd ... some of the smartest hackers around do littl…

Maybe I'm just incredibly naive, but are fizzbuzz tests really that necessary? I have a hard time believing anybody could get an interview, let alone graduate with a BS in compsci, without being able to do something THAT simple ....

I interviewed a 'senior' developer who had been a consultant for several years. When we asked how he implemented past projects, his answers were really vague. We got suspicious and dropped down to a simple problem like, "write a loop to print the numbers from one to ten."

The guy was writing some really weird stuff. When asked to explain, he confidently told us that in C++, every time you reference the iterator variable inside the loop, it gets increased. His solution was something like:

    for (int i = 1; i
(except I'm pretty sure he didn't get printf right)

So, yeah, I see FizzBuzz as a wonderful way to weed out the incompetent right away, allowing you to focus on deciding whether you need capable or exceptional.

Incidentally, one of the guys on my senior project team in college didn't understand how variable assignment worked. He would write:

    int flagsVar = COMMON_BASE_FLAGS;
    flagsVar = ADDITIONAL_FLAG_I_WANT;
    CallAPI(flagsVar);  // Why doesn't it work?!
He graduated.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#292

Post by EternalFury »

Smart individuals don't relish the thought of being saddled by hustlers who intend to ride them to the top of the mountain. Granted, you can't make everyone a co-founder, but there is quite a bit of leeway between that and token equity.

I get contacted all the time by start-up hustlers who tell me in detail what they expect or want. When I compare their "wild desires" to what I estimate they will contribute to building something from nothing, I am left with only one conclusion: They believe engineering/programming/technology is as trivial as blogging about your dream of becoming the next Mark Zuckerberg.

Sorry, fellas, but coding and talking are not the same thing. Coding and hustling are not the same thing either.

Another pet peeve of mine is people who contact me claiming they are looking for a technical co-founder. I go along and quickly learn they have already made all technical decisions and claim they have "90% of the code in place". In the back of my mind, I know why they say that: They just don't want to admit my contribution would be worth more than a single-digit percentage of their unborn company.

In the end, I can see through all that and I am not about to let anyone take advantage of me.

I am not alone either and all those smart individuals you need to build a successful company can see through it all as well.

Conclusion: 90%+ of all start-ups fail lamentably. Because too many entrepreneurs just want to get rich before anything else and it's hard to convince people to join you when you are so obviously self-centered.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#293

Post by skerrit_bwoy »

juddlyon wrote: post #154
vaksel wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely. Unlike other jobs, you need to always update your skills, learning new languages. And there is no safety, since your position can always be outsourced by an MBA who wants to save the company a few bucks. And thanks to blackberry/remote computing, you are pretty much always connected to your job...and can be called in to work at night, on the weekends...and any time your boss pleases. And there…

"There are plenty of jobs that will both pay you more, require less hours, require less commitment, and will be a very safe career(from outsourcing)." Tell me more!

Any of the medical careers, from nursing to MD to podiatrist to dentist.

T14 law school and BIGLAW.

MBB consulting drone and then BigCo Apparatchik.

Buy-side finance, like equity research, portfolio manager, private equity, etc.

Commissioned officer in the US military.

CPA Accountant.

Patent attorney.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#294

Post by microtonal »

rmc wrote: post #180
dr_ wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors don't have infinite sick days, many don't have 30 vacation days (I barely take a week off a year), and most don't have 40 hr work weeks.

Yeah no-where on earth are there 30 holiday days per year and 40 hour maximum. No-one works that. Except several EU countries which have that as the legal minimum… (e.g. France: 35 hr legal working week, 25 days holidays and ~ 13 paid public holidays per year)

I'm in The Netherlands, have a 40 hour work week, more than 30 days of paid leave, plus extra days when I move/marry/etc. It's pretty common in Western Europe.

And it's not as if we have less welfare, healthcare, worse education, low productivity, or an instable economy. In fact, in pretty much all rankings Western European countries are doing fine.

Unfortunately, government policies that make such thinks possible are called 'socialist' on the other side of the pond.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#295

Post by encoderer »

From my own experience of comparing my salary to those of friends in this industry, a lot of the discrepancy I see is largely based on very poor negotiation skills. In my case, my dad taught me how to negotiate salary on my first real job the way some guys dad's teach them how to box. I'm horrible in a fight but have proven to be a fairly good negotiator.

And I can understand why people compare software engineers to doctors and attorneys: Cases of highly trained "knowledge workers". But one big difference is that doctors are most often hired by other doctors. And lawyers are most often hired by other lawyers. Most engineers are hired as support-staff in an unrelated field. The ones that do work for software companies and startups are usually paid more. These are all just a few correlated data points but I think there's something to it.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#296

Post by 3pt14159 »

Jabbles wrote: post #284
cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency.

Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europeans outsource their after hour times to pubs and social atmospheres. An "excellent" amount of vacation in North America is 20 days + 7 or so Government mandated days off. I've yet to meet someone under 35 that has a better deal than that, even in tech, and for most workers it is 10 days + 7.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#297

Post by elliottcarlson »

devs1010 wrote: post #278
elliottcarlson wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's awesome - however I would not hire you. I would never expect someone to put their job before their family. Got a son't game to go to - go to it. Gotta pick up the kids from school one day, why are you still in the office? But I would also expect that if a server is down, or a critical bug is preventing the site from working that I could count on someone to help get things working. Not that you said you wou…

caring about family more than job != not caring about job I'm not sure how you get that out of what he said, you could conceivably care more about your job than anything BUT your family which is still a lot of caring, IMO

I am looking at it from a prospective employer. As I said, it may not be the case, but stating that he would not work more than 40 hours under any circumstances would lead me to believe this and would cause him to not get hired. He could be an excellent worker, gets all his work done on time and be able to leave on time every day of the year - but in the back of my head I am still thinking about that 40 hour limit and will think that I am completely screwed to be able to use his talents when there is a legitimate issue.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#298

Post by manmal »

kamaal wrote: post #176
throwaway1979 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sir ... I tip my hat to you. Can you elaborate on #3? Are you in the US? Did you move to a cheaper location? I don't understand how the future's going to play out with respect to retirement. I'm in my early 30s if that helps. I looked for a financial planner ... but could not find any in my area. Just financial advisers wanting to sell me the latest "product". Any books/tips? Funny story: my fiance and I got went to…

I am from Bangalore, India. I agree I'm going through the same route as a you. But I'm in my 20's now. Pretty confused as to how the future would turn out. Our country has had a very unpredictable curve when in comes to economic conditions. Especially IT industry has changed drastically. During the 90's and early 2000's, you could just join the industry get promoted to be a manager in a couple of years. Get a US trip…

Ask yourself: Do you really want to spend so many years buried in work, and postpone "real life" to later? Life is here and now, and you don't know what will be tomorrow.

If you really want to get rich, you are not going to cut it by working harder - that's what Einstein calls insanity. Cutting social life by a few hours every day does not scale well - the maximum you can get out of your day is twice as much (if you work 16h instead of 8h). Overworking deprives us of seeing what chances we are actually given - that's what I had to learn while having a burnout in my early 20s. It sounds like you need to step back, look at your worklife, and find new possibilities and ways of generating value. Being an employee is just one of so many ways.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#299

Post by luser001 »

elliottcarlson wrote: post #267
Apreche wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family and friends are vastly more important to me than any job, period. I work to live. End of story. If I have to sacrifice that most important thing to me in the whole world, then there is no point. I would rather be a homeless bum with the people I care about doing the things I care about than at any job in the universe.

And that's awesome - however I would not hire you. I would never expect someone to put their job before their family. Got a son't game to go to - go to it. Gotta pick up the kids from school one day, why are you still in the office? But I would also expect that if a server is down, or a critical bug is preventing the site from working that I could count on someone to help get things working. Not that you said you wou…

See the subject line of the article. Are you prepared to pay people one way or other (extra vacation days, on-the-spot cash bonus to take family out to a fancy dinner) for stepping up? No? Why not?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#300

Post by manmal »

matant wrote: post #120

In South Italy professionist graduated, certificated, with ten yeas of experience as Java programmer, earn net 1500 euros. I’m graduated and work from 2 years and earn net 1200 euros. I prefer be waiter, i’m moving away from Italy to start as waiter, it’s better!

Consider remote working as a freelancer in other European countries, they pay 70€+ per hour if they need you (and you are good ;)). All you need is a fast internet connection and a coffee machine at home :)
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