Want good programmers? Then pay them. • Hacker News Board

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#271

Post by devs1010 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 4:55 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #185

elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

Crisis mode is addictive. It was fun to play the hero and get 'That One Critical Feature' out of the door for an important demo. It is a rush. Investors like it. Engineers like it. Soon a company is always in crisis mode; pushing hard to get the next great thing out. It becomes the culture. At one company I worked at the VP of Engineering was the hardest, longest working person I'd ever met and a driver of that cultu…

I think in cases where you may loose a client or seriously damage a relationship it could also be warranted. Honestly, if they give you flex time, I don't mind all that much. At a job I started fairly recently I had to push really hard for a couple of days (put in probably 3 extra hours a day for 2 days) but then they gave me a day off after those 2 days and then the rest of the week I basically was given nothing else to do so it was really relaxed. I think the main thing is they recognize the sacrifice and act accordingly to not burn you out.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#272

Post by carlob » Thu, May 03, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #186

carlob wrote: post #139

I wouldn't compare European salaries with US so quickly. I have a cautionary tale to tell: when in 1990 the USSR collapsed, many Russian physicists decided to move abroad, some to western Europe, some to the USA. At first the European ones were complaining about their lower salaries, but once they started having kids and needing more medical care, they realized that they were actually much better off than their Ameri…

The US has a national law on maternity leave, the family and medical leave act. Of course, we expect US laws to be less generous because it is the government of a federation of states, like something between a European national government and the EU.

A national law that imposes at least 0 weeks of maternity leave. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Americas

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#273

Post by socialist_coder » Thu, May 03, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

Funny, my first post on hacker news was about programmer salary in Austria. I got offered a senior programmer job in Vienna for a fraction of what I'm making here in the US.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2473544

It's good to know that I wasn't crazy for thinking the salary was too low.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#274

Post by drivingmenuts » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

The one thing I do need is the ability to pay rent and bills WITHOUT WORRYING about them.

Because every minute I spend worrying about my financial situation is a minute I absolutely cannot spend working on your software.

After that, it's all good.

Though sick days and vacation is nice, too. Or at least don't ask me about it when I just kinda disappear for a day or have a completely unproductive day.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#275

Post by bmelton » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

skerrit_bwoy wrote: post #268

bmelton wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't actually paid based on cost of living, per se, but as that factors in so heavily, it can swing the value proportionally. If I move back to Memphis, TN, I can make approximately half of what I make now in the DC area to live as comfortably as I do. Does that mean I'm worth half as much? No. Does it mean I should expect to make half as much? Pretty much, yeah. Beyond meeting my basic needs (rent, food, whate…

WHY DO PROGRAMMERS THINK LIKE THIS? A radiologist makes $350k whether he's in Manhattan or Memphis. A hedge fund analyst makes comparable, whether he's in LA or Louisville. A BIGLAWyer makes comparable, whether he's in Chicago or Charlestown. They are paid for the value of services rendered, and the doctors, bankers, and lawyers I know seem perfectly content to maximize their income while minimizing their expenses. O…

I don't think that's true at all, actually.

I just did some (admittedly) anecdotal job searches for radiology, and there's a $150k price difference between New York and Indiana.

I knew a few attorneys that have moved into the DC area to raise their rates (and one who commutes two hours in to DC because otherwise, his billable rate is halved.)

The positions people are paid also depend on the cost of living in the area. If the median income for an area is $28k vs. $50k, they're simply not able to afford legal services that cost twice the market. This might mean that lawyers in rural areas only work half as much at the same rate, but that means that without some clever accounting, their yearly income is still (approximately) halved.

I'm not saying that no such positions exist, but I know that doctors, lawyers and the like ARE subject to cost of living variance. I don't know of any position in any field that isn't at least somewhat affected by the median income of the municipality in which they operate.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#276

Post by RedwoodCity » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

Lottery tickets might be a better deal, they tell you the odds straight out and you get your picture in the news if you win.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#277

Post by pkmehta » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I get that devs are in demand and that folks should be paid fairly, but after reading this, I don't know if I'd want to work with you in an employer-employee relationship or even as a colleague.

This smacked of a level of entitlement that I think would be cancerous to any group of people working together. Just my $.02.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#278

Post by devs1010 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

elliottcarlson wrote: post #267

Apreche wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family and friends are vastly more important to me than any job, period. I work to live. End of story. If I have to sacrifice that most important thing to me in the whole world, then there is no point. I would rather be a homeless bum with the people I care about doing the things I care about than at any job in the universe.

And that's awesome - however I would not hire you. I would never expect someone to put their job before their family. Got a son't game to go to - go to it. Gotta pick up the kids from school one day, why are you still in the office? But I would also expect that if a server is down, or a critical bug is preventing the site from working that I could count on someone to help get things working. Not that you said you wou…

caring about family more than job != not caring about job

I'm not sure how you get that out of what he said, you could conceivably care more about your job than anything BUT your family which is still a lot of caring, IMO

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#279

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:04 PM UTC

tensor wrote: post #256

solsenNet wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe you should start your own company? seems to me you chaff quite a bit about being a "wage slave"

Indeed. Also, he seems to want the pendulum to swing from the employee courting companies to the company courting employees. Personally, I think there should be a mutual respect between an employer and employee. Further, someone whose sole goal is not to work, as it seems here, is probably not someone you really want to work with nor to start his own company. There are certainly a lot of people who do in fact do noth…

He didn't say he would do nothing when he got rich. He said he would code whatever he wanted, without regard to making money. Big difference. An independently wealthy person could become a star of the open-source world.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#280

Post by manmal » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:04 PM UTC

spullara wrote: post #240

manmal wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austrian (currently self-employed) developer here. You are mostly right, except that: Employees are not impossible to fire, that's a myth. There was this big Siemens layoff some years ago where several hundred developer lost their job, just because Siemens decided they are not into software anymore. Also, it is common to pressure people into signing mutual "job quit contracts" (don't know a better word). How did you…

A layoff is not considered being fired.

It is not considered being fired by you ;) This particular layoff was a strategic decision - and a bad one too, they are now advertising in TV that Siemens is a good place for IT folks.