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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#251

Post by base698 »

kaib wrote: post #45
zeemonkee wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a similar experience in Finland - the shitty salaries (and lack of interesting work that isn't somehow tied to the sinking ship that is Nokia) are one reason I avoid Finnish companies like the plague, and just work for foreign clients. This is the reason Finnish companies don't advertise salary, which is common in the UK and US for example - it's all collectively bargained in some way out of your control.

Just a quick heads up. If you are interested in distributed systems, computational geometry or working on a custom WebGL app fire me an email, we might have something interesting for you at Tinkercad. Our tech team is based in the heart of Helsinki and we are actively looking for new talent. If we aren't a good match for you I know a bunch of other interesting startups that I can put you in touch with. Ping me at kai…

I was implementing a proof of concept in WebGL for my product and thought, I wonder if someone has implemented a WebGL modeler yet? After a bit of search ran across Tinkercad... Was a super impressive product, and don't know why more people aren't aware of it.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#252

Post by jeffpersonified »

ntkachov wrote: post #138
elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

I think he meant that if there is a serious crisis he might stay. Sure, every once in a while a tornado sweeps through your data center. That happens once every other year. "We need you to stay till midnight because a very serious VC is coming in and this project needs to be done" is not a crisis. Serious stuff happens, it does not happen every other week.

Agreed. If a business is constantly in crisis mode, something else is wrong, and 40-45 hours a week seems like a good goal to shoot.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#253

Post by tensor »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #125
Mikushi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or there is a shortage of developers in your area. My previous company was offering competitive salaries, good environment, challenging work, and we had trouble filling position with decent developers...

Raise salaries and attract developers from outside your area. The problem was that you weren't actually offering "competitive" salaries, you were merely offering what may have been standard for your area but no longer was sufficient, by your own report.

When someone says "there is a shortage of oil" it is indeed true that oil costs skyrocket. It is also true that there is a shortage of oil. Shortages cause prices to increase, so much so that many people might not be able to afford a resource at all. It's a bit silly to say "there are no shortages! Only cheap consumers!"

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#254

Post by waterlesscloud »

tensor wrote: post #253
waterlesscloud wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise salaries and attract developers from outside your area. The problem was that you weren't actually offering "competitive" salaries, you were merely offering what may have been standard for your area but no longer was sufficient, by your own report.

When someone says "there is a shortage of oil" it is indeed true that oil costs skyrocket. It is also true that there is a shortage of oil. Shortages cause prices to increase, so much so that many people might not be able to afford a resource at all. It's a bit silly to say "there are no shortages! Only cheap consumers!"

The point here is that if you can't find programmers at a given salary, that salary is not in fact "competitive".

You can decide that you can't afford actual competitive salaries, but calling your salary offers competitive when they are not will not help you in any way.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#255

Post by base698 »

DominikR wrote: post #127
yummyfajitas wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I would probably earn more if I did the same job in San Francisco, but then I would have to deal with a much worse social situation, and I would have to be more cautious. Does the crime rate actually differ much between SF and Vienna? A quick google search provides very little info, but suggests there is not much difference. I haven't been to SF lately, but crime is a negligible issue in NYC. Though SF may be a…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r... San Francisco has more homicides with its population of ~800k than all of Austria combined with a population of 8,5 million.

Almost all of them are gang related--YAY drug war! As an upper middle class software engineer it's not really a good argument.

Though the poverty and hopelessness can be a little sad if you walk through the bad areas.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#256

Post by tensor »

solsenNet wrote: post #229
Apreche wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I want to add one more thing, since everyone seems to like my comment. You can pay me too much money. If you give me say, a million dollars a year, I will work for one year, and then you will never see me again. I will go home and live my life as I please, and only code what I want to code. The code may or may not make money. I may or may not try. If I work at a startup that cashes out big, then I will travel the…

maybe you should start your own company? seems to me you chaff quite a bit about being a "wage slave"

Indeed. Also, he seems to want the pendulum to swing from the employee courting companies to the company courting employees. Personally, I think there should be a mutual respect between an employer and employee. Further, someone whose sole goal is not to work, as it seems here, is probably not someone you really want to work with nor to start his own company.

There are certainly a lot of people who do in fact do nothing when they become independently wealthy. But many also continue working regardless because they actually enjoy what they do.

People should absolutely be paid fairly and treated with respect. But if you expect someone to worship you for some reason, wether employer or employee, you should probably adjust your attitude.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#257

Post by [deleted] »

its_so_on wrote: post #172
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

guys, the parent was attempting to write satire. little do you know, that except for infinite sick days or 40 hour weeks, you are "lampooning" a lower-than-average rate for anyone qualified in the bay area. Look at it this way. If Amazon can use you to create a million dollars in value, and therefore vies with Google, who can use to to create a similar amount of money in value, and between them and about a hundred si…

[deleted]

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#258

Post by pavel_lishin »

sanxiyn wrote: post #50
mgkimsal wrote: post #6

most companies don't know how to value the contributions of software developers. i'm not actually sure they know how to value the contributions of most employees, period, except for salespeople. However as a dev, I'm biased some. I do think the potential for high value contributions, and the ability to avoid even costlier mistakes, is higher in the IT/dev dept vs other corporate departments. Several years ago I was o…

Re: basic skills. I think we have a big problem with schools. Why don't they teach how to test? Why don't they teach how to debug? Really, what are they teaching that is more important than these basic skills?

It depends on your degree.

I went in for a Computer Science degree. I heard the words "testing" and "source control" precisely zero times in class.

I should have gone the Software Engineering route, because there, at least they had actual projects they had to deliver to complete a class.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#259

Post by jebblue »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #222
malandrew wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't get paid based on your cost of living. You should get paid on value added. TBH, I don't see why living in the midwest should drop the salary a company owes you that much. If you are a good developer, you should command a salary comparable to the value you add plus a profit margin for the business. The only two explanations I can see is that, collectively, software engineers in the midwest are simply not…

The problem with this is viewable on freelancer.com and other sites. Once you can be sure a coder will do good work remotely, then you can get a coder to do some work from anywhere on the planet, and those who have a much lower cost of living will happily undercut those who dont. It may be the single biggest driver against the growth of cities.

Yup, they say on their front page that the average job is under $200. That's about 3 to 4 hours work for me.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#260

Post by jeffpersonified »

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I think being dogmatic in these circumstances is perhaps a little short-sighted. As with all things, finding the middle ground – balance – ought to be the goal, and not rigid conformity to rules. In this circumstance, it sounds like you'd might be hard to work with.

That being said, an employee with balance and boundaries, particularly if they can be seen in your life outside of work, is far more desirable in an employee than someone with none. How we live our lives outside the work place is indicative of how we function inside the office, and setting boundaries around the office shows a healthy valuing of our personal time.

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