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Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

prospectmagazine.co.uk

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Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#341

Post by _xivi »

alkonaut wrote: post #329
_xivi wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telling people they need to use a less convenient payment method only to keep it alive for an emergency also seems doomed to fail. Who said that? Certainly not me Personally, I'm not advocating for cash. I just think it's stupid to brag about eliminating cash while putting all your savings and trust in a fragile system and infrastructure . There's nothing revolutionary about that. People should have options and bac…

I meant that (Telling people to use cash more to keep the system afloat) would be one potential solution to the problem, but not one I think would work. I think people should not have to use cash, and I certainly won’t. But I do think society must have a resilient payment system - even if only as backup.

> I do think society must have a resilient payment system - even if only as backup

On that note we can agree. The goal is having a resilient system where you can access your funds when you need it most.

See my other comment for backstory:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39239919

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#342

Post by thaumasiotes »

croes wrote: post #228
thaumasiotes wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if a million poor people lose $1 each, that has the same effect as one guy losing $1 million.

If million people lose $1, nobody cares. If one guy loses 1 million he might cut costs that will affect others. If people like Musk lose wealth because of sinking stock prices, his workers don't have suddenly more buying power.

Something seems to have gone badly wrong in your choice of example - that didn't even involve any money.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#343

Post by Alifatisk »

IshKebab wrote: post #322
Alifatisk wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense So you tried to prove me wrong by giving a made up example?

The fact that my example is not really true is a stronger argument against you, not weaker.

I don’t see how?

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#344

Post by pzo »

seszett wrote: post #223
nonrandomstring wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some scenarios I hope you see as obvious: - you take out cash from an ATM. The machine is loaded with sequential or logged order of SN that can be matched to withdrawals and times. - you take that cash immediately to a vending machine or supermarket auto-checkout that takes notes. The machine scans all notes it ingests and can match them to timings and purchase details. - Even a small shop might have a camera at the…

> - you take that cash immediately to a vending machine or supermarket auto-checkout that takes notes. The machine scans all notes it ingests and can match them to timings and purchase details. I can tell you they don't do that, at least for the systems I know in Europe. And for manual systems obviously the cashier doesn't record serials and match them to transactions.

How about money counting machines? Medium and bigger shops probably have those and if not they probably at least every few days bring cash to bank to deposit on their account.

Remember supposedly most printers were printing some semi invisible serial codes - for tracking whistleblowers and leaks.

Probably cannot easily prove that ATM or money counter machines manufactures are not doing something similar.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#345

Post by vlovich123 »

asystole wrote: post #321
vlovich123 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

opendime is a one time use bearer bond that costs ~$10 per device. It cannot be used like cash - you have to transfer the full amount - and it can break much more easily than cash. cashu is still online and its anonymity claims should be taken as suspect given that no cryptocurrency has managed to achieve it in practice. So to summarize: Bitcoin only really works online, offline equivalents are more fragile and can’t…

Maybe this is pedantry, but opendime isn't really one-time use. It's designed to be passed between people many times and spent on-chain once. There's also satscard (from the same company) which has 10 unique "slots" so can be spent on-chain multiple times. >offline equivalents are more fragile and can’t be used for the same use cases as cash, and anonymity continues to lag physical cash OK, no argument there.

From what I read about open dime you do a one way physical action which changes the circuitry to reveal the private key when you plug it in. I’m not sure if you can validate the amount on the key before hand but once that seal is broken you are saying you’re the one to spend it on-chain as at that point someone else could have the private key and already spent it. Additionally you really have to know how this device works to accept it as payment cause otherwise someone could trick you by giving you the unsealed portion without you realizing the implication and you have to know how to safely verify it. With cash you only need to know how to detect counterfeit notes.

The same issues with opendime apply to satscard - cash can be transferred thousands or tens of thousands of times and doesn’t carry any extra cost and can be trivially broken up into smaller transactions. This thing requires gas fees to transfer onto and off the card + the cost of the card itself + limited number of transfers if you want to change the amount.

These devices are clearly meant more for long term cold storage using physical security to avoid losing the key and not as a way to replace cash transactions. Totally different applications even though cash also can be intrinsically used as long term cold storage (just more complicated physically)

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#346

Post by tastyfreeze »

david2ndaccount wrote: post #330

The issues with physical currency are almost entirely self-inflicted. Governments should retire the smallest denominations and introduce larger coins/bills. In the US, all of the coins are worth so little that the only practical coin is the rare half-dollar. Retire all of those worthless coins, require transactions be rounded to the nearest half-dollar or dollar, and issues with physical currency for the user will go…

You know what? That sounds like a great idea. A single dollar doesn't buy much these days. Maybe we should add a zero to all the bills too.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#347

Post by asystole »

tyfon wrote: post #260
noodlesUK wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is, whilst I’m sure that cards are cheaper overall, they present a serious burden for people who can’t use them: unbanked people for various reasons, older people, children etc.

Children and old people here all use cards or apps. And derisking is illegal, so you have to provide a bank account and cards to anyone who wants. The high risk customers just need more follow-up on terms of AML.

Discussions like this on reddit/HN always get stuck in this loop of people projecting how things are in their part of the world onto the rest of the world and assuming everyone has the same problems/challenges/tradeoffs.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#348

Post by chasd00 »

rwmj wrote: post #26
ghaff wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use very little cash in MA. But checks are still pretty much the default for a lot of people doing various services for me. I can just leave a check for someone like my housekeeper. I could presumably make arrangements to pay in a different form (including cash) but why bother? And, in many cases, it's my bank actually "writing" the check and delivering it. I'd change if it became an aberration or weird to do but i…

That's wild. Here in the UK, tradespeople usually have a card reader, or some accept bank transfers.

The vast vast majority of tradespeople in Texas are what’s called “cash under the table”. They don’t report their income and so never pay taxes. All take cash only or something like a check made out to “cash” instead of a name. It’s how many “poor” families qualify for assistance yet drive $100k pickups and all their kids have the latest iPhones and gaming systems.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#349

Post by Aerroon »

caldarons wrote: post #328
happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

maybe we should start thinking of payment infrastructure as a core public service if we move away from cash? Just like there is an official entity that can "print" cash, we should start doing the same with digital payments (I believe the EU is doing somethig similar). That way you don't have a duopoly taking a cut of every transaction.

Governments should be running their own digital counterparts to cash, but they need to add the anonymity of this cash into the constitution. Otherwise the security apparatus is going to ruin it for everyone.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#350

Post by krapp »

Aerroon wrote: post #349
caldarons wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe we should start thinking of payment infrastructure as a core public service if we move away from cash? Just like there is an official entity that can "print" cash, we should start doing the same with digital payments (I believe the EU is doing somethig similar). That way you don't have a duopoly taking a cut of every transaction.

Governments should be running their own digital counterparts to cash, but they need to add the anonymity of this cash into the constitution. Otherwise the security apparatus is going to ruin it for everyone.

... because the security apparatus is definitely held in check by the Constitution?
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