Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

search.informit.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 72 posts

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#61

Post by genman »

hef19898 wrote: post #60
genman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazi Germany won clear victories against Poland and France. Had UK given up and signed a peace with Germany then it could have been possible that there wouldn't have been what we call WW2 today at all. Given what Germans planned to do then fortunately it didn't happen. We can thank stubbornness of Churchill for this. But Germany made it even worse - it declared war on United States. But there were no treaties between…

The Wehrmacht was stopped before Moscow by the Soviets before lend-lease supplies had any meaningful impact. And the Soviet would not have ended the war when the UK exited it. Which never was an option to begin with, a seperate peace with the western allies was one Hitler's many pipe dreams. The victory against Poland was, in the end, meaningless with the failure of Barbarossa. As was the victory against France in th…

In hindsight yes, most of this is true, but it is not guaranteed that all of this would have happened.

Wehrmacht rapid advance was stopped, but it didn't yet mean pushing them out would have been possible without tremendous material support through lend lease, without what there wouldn't have been any adequate Red Army logistics and armor.

USSR was able to produce around 40 000 tanks and this force overwhelmed German armor capacity, but they were able build this much only considering that US provided 400 000 trucks, if it was not so, considerable amount of tank building capacity would have to had been shared to build trucks, but even then the steel to build tanks came from US. On top of this USSR got 14 000 planes and also rail wagons and engines.

If there was a pipe dream then it was Red Army countering Wehrmacht without US material support. Russians like to minuscule the importance of US support but it was substantial and most likely essential for their victory.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#62

Post by genman »

thriftwy wrote: post #57
genman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USSR simply ran out of resources to continue the war. They would have happily continued if they could have been able to afford it. In the end the country had dire deficit of even basic everyday items including food. But similarly to the Vietnam war it was not able to "sell" the losses to their own people, especially on the occupied territories (Soviet Republics), where it was seen as another Russian expansionist inva…

> especially on the occupied territories (Soviet Republics) A majority of these republics were founded by the USSR by carving them out of RSFSR, without the regard of wishes of people who ended up split by these borders. I guess its karma when USSR wanted to be the example of affirmative action socialist state ran by ethnic minorities, only to get framed for imperialism by the autonomous republics it has created.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Soviet Republics (SSR) post WW2 e.g. the occupied territories that were not in RSFSR.

These "autonomous" republics were anything but autonomous. They were autonomous within the very strict framework provided by Russia. Puppet states would be the closest description, but even then not fully accurate. On top of this there was no need for Russian help to "create" these fake republics. Nations were completely capable to create their own governance like was for example the case with Ukraine. All what Russians did was to use the cover of communism to continue their imperialist ambitions.

RSFSR contained ASSR (Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republics) and these had even less autonomy. Most of these nations should have also been given the opportunity to have statehood as they wanted.

If you were talking about ASSR before WW2 that were transformed into SSR then again, see the previous point.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#63

Post by thriftwy »

genman wrote: post #62
thriftwy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> especially on the occupied territories (Soviet Republics) A majority of these republics were founded by the USSR by carving them out of RSFSR, without the regard of wishes of people who ended up split by these borders. I guess its karma when USSR wanted to be the example of affirmative action socialist state ran by ethnic minorities, only to get framed for imperialism by the autonomous republics it has created.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Soviet Republics (SSR) post WW2 e.g. the occupied territories that were not in RSFSR. These "autonomous" republics were anything but autonomous. They were autonomous within the very strict framework provided by Russia. Puppet states would be the closest description, but even then not fully accurate. On top of this there was no need for Russian help t…

I don't believe you have the full context and reading Wikipedia on the subject will yield a lot of surprises.

USSR got the following bits and pieces after WWII:

* Kaliningrad, added to RSFSR

* West Ukraine, added to Ukrainian SSR

* Some ex-Polish lands added to Belorussian SSR (Poland get even more of better, ex-German lands though)

* Baltic states

* Tuva.

Of these, perhaps three Baltic republics were not happy about Afghanistan (and everything else), but they were quite small.

The rest of stuff, such as UkrSSR, BelSSR, Caucasus and Central Asian SSRs, were carved out of RSFSR (Russia) in the 1920's by the USSR, after being part of Russian Empire for a century or more. Most of them did not exist as a separate state previously, especially in the assigned borders. Some briefly existed, often as anarchist or German puppet states, between 1917 and 1921.

USSR did indeed gain control of various Eastern European countries such as Poland or Romania, but they were not part of USSR so they did not have to fight in Afghanistan.

The rest of stuff about nations and statehood opportunity is frankly bullshit. These ASSRs were also carved by USSR out of Russia, and almost universally have 40% to 80% of Russian population within them - the only separatist opportunity they have is to be a particularly poor reissue of Bosnia. People are not stupid and they understand that.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#64

Post by genman »

hef19898 wrote: post #36
genman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no, it is not what happened in Vietnam and Afghanistan. In Vietnam there was constant foreign infiltration by the enemy and they used quite nasty "tactics" to gain local influence. Afghanistan is not much different. In principle the side that was more willing to instill more terror into local populace won. The same problems of logistics also do apply to the local opposition. If you run out of weapons or ammu…

The US were extremely willing to cut North Vietnamese supply lines, including illegal operations in neighbouring countries. The only thing not tried was flattening cities in the North by air (that approach didn't work in WW2 neither, so no big loss). True so, the South received billions in support from the US, including a full troop deployment for years. The North did the same from China and the USSR. Still, at the c…

I would disagree. The most US was willing to do was to cause some inconvenience. If US really wanted to stop Viet Cong infiltration then they should have built a proper demilitarized zone between Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#65

Post by genman »

thriftwy wrote: post #63
genman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Soviet Republics (SSR) post WW2 e.g. the occupied territories that were not in RSFSR. These "autonomous" republics were anything but autonomous. They were autonomous within the very strict framework provided by Russia. Puppet states would be the closest description, but even then not fully accurate. On top of this there was no need for Russian help t…

I don't believe you have the full context and reading Wikipedia on the subject will yield a lot of surprises. USSR got the following bits and pieces after WWII: * Kaliningrad, added to RSFSR * West Ukraine, added to Ukrainian SSR * Some ex-Polish lands added to Belorussian SSR (Poland get even more of better, ex-German lands though) * Baltic states * Tuva. Of these, perhaps three Baltic republics were not happy about…

I can see who you are. This comment is sufficient. Is this enough context for you?

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#66

Post by thriftwy »

genman wrote: post #65
thriftwy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe you have the full context and reading Wikipedia on the subject will yield a lot of surprises. USSR got the following bits and pieces after WWII: * Kaliningrad, added to RSFSR * West Ukraine, added to Ukrainian SSR * Some ex-Polish lands added to Belorussian SSR (Poland get even more of better, ex-German lands though) * Baltic states * Tuva. Of these, perhaps three Baltic republics were not happy about…

I can see who you are. This comment is sufficient. Is this enough context for you?

[flagged]

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#67

Post by jnsaff2 »

thriftwy wrote: post #66
genman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see who you are. This comment is sufficient. Is this enough context for you?

[flagged]

Your comments come off similar to a slave owner bragging about how many slaves they got at various stages and complaining about how ungrateful those slaves were to you.

Completely forgetting the slave aspect that comes with murder, deportations, rape, lack of self determination or any other human rights.

russophobia in this case is merely the dislike to being invaded and murdered by russians.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#68

Post by thriftwy »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #67
thriftwy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your comments come off similar to a slave owner bragging about how many slaves they got at various stages and complaining about how ungrateful those slaves were to you. Completely forgetting the slave aspect that comes with murder, deportations, rape, lack of self determination or any other human rights. russophobia in this case is merely the dislike to being invaded and murdered by russians.

The primary error in your reasoning is that you assume that I'm some kind of empowered slave holder. But that's not true.

In fact, all of my ancestors that I know of are peasants, some of them serfdom peasants, most of them surely the Soviet XX century selfdom "kolkhoz peasants".

So whatever the ethnic minorities there were in the Soviet Union and preceding Russian Empire, a) I don't owe them anything, b) I would suggest them to cry me a river, and c) I will be offended by any unfounded accusations towards Russians.

As I have shown two answers below, my opponent cannot get his facts straight and is proud of it.

Now, I don't know who are you and when you've checked your own privileges the last time. Maybe you had actual slave owners between your ancestors, and now spend time lecturing dumb Eastern Europeans how they should treat each other.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#69

Post by jnsaff2 »

thriftwy wrote: post #68
jnsaff2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments come off similar to a slave owner bragging about how many slaves they got at various stages and complaining about how ungrateful those slaves were to you. Completely forgetting the slave aspect that comes with murder, deportations, rape, lack of self determination or any other human rights. russophobia in this case is merely the dislike to being invaded and murdered by russians.

The primary error in your reasoning is that you assume that I'm some kind of empowered slave holder. But that's not true. In fact, all of my ancestors that I know of are peasants, some of them serfdom peasants, most of them surely the Soviet XX century selfdom "kolkhoz peasants". So whatever the ethnic minorities there were in the Soviet Union and preceding Russian Empire, a) I don't owe them anything, b) I would sug…

Ashamed of nothing, offended by everything.

Re: Lasers or Longbows? A Paradox of Military Technology (2010)

#70

Post by thriftwy »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #69
thriftwy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary error in your reasoning is that you assume that I'm some kind of empowered slave holder. But that's not true. In fact, all of my ancestors that I know of are peasants, some of them serfdom peasants, most of them surely the Soviet XX century selfdom "kolkhoz peasants". So whatever the ethnic minorities there were in the Soviet Union and preceding Russian Empire, a) I don't owe them anything, b) I would sug…

Ashamed of nothing, offended by everything.

My ancestors were the literal serfs - what the heck do I need to be ashamed of?

Imagine a Russian-speaking dude in Ulyanovsk in 1985 bring told he should be ashamed of his treatment of another Russian-speaking dude in Kharkov. And on what account? The latter one has more opportunities, lives in slightly better climate and has slightly higher consumption standards. And that's all folks.

These discussions make no sense. Sticking to the facts do, though.

Post reply on HN