Live data from Hacker News

Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

hive.co.uk

531–540 of 660 posts

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#531
post #31
post #6

Adding this to my reading list. I've thought for years that we should place at hard cap on wealth somewhere around $10 or $15 million. Because that's the point at which you have enough wealth to live a comfortably middle class lifestyle for the rest of your life, still pass down a substantial chunk to your children, and never have to earn another cent. I've argued we should combine this with a move towards a worker o…

Any solutions that are in conflict with human nature will never be successful. Ambition and envy are basic human traits. At a deeper level, we are beings that measure everything (including light, sound, smell, touch and taste) by way of comparison. Communism fails because no one has anything left to aspire to and everyone is therefore equally miserable.

[deleted]

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can invest it in the riskless asset and have a dollar and some interest tomorrow.

Forgive my naïveté, but if it’s riskless, how are you getting interest from investing in it?

If I have 10 pounds of blueberries and you have 10 pounds of strawberries there will be a natural price for one in terms of the other based on our different marginal preferences for the two commodities.

Think of a dollar today as one commodity and a dollar tomorrow as a separate and distinct one. There is a difference in our marginal preferences and that is where the interest rate comes from.

Just as both of us can be made better off trading blueberries and strawberries without actually creating anything new, the difference in our inter temporal marginal preference will reward the lender with a return even in the absence of risk.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like guesswork around peoples motivation. Not saying you are wrong, but I'm making the argument that this is a pretty big claim (people being motivated not by wealth or status or curiosity but by extreme wealth). I just don't buy this claim. I don't think it's been a motivation of anyone who has made (say) a billion dollars, to only make another billion. Perhaps be the biggest company or invent the greate…

If you pay someone to do X, and then stop paying them they will stop doing X even if they enjoyed it. The same will be true for these leaders, you can't just take all their future wealth and expect them to continue, they will stop the instant they stop making money, just like any other person.

> If you pay someone to do X, and then stop paying them they will stop doing X even if they enjoyed it

That's because for 99.999% of people, being paid money has utility. So the payment provides some benefit for them. But for someone with $2B, my argument is precisely this: whatever it is that drove them to make $2B (inveting the best product, or whatever) is NOT what drives them to make the NEXT $1B.

> you can't just take all their future wealth and expect them to continue > they will stop the instant they stop making money, just like any other person.

You cabsolutely can, and they absoluteluy will not.

That's the whole point again: assuming a high enough "cap", we are talking about people who will never not be extremely wealthy. Whether the cap is $100M; $1B or $10B can be argued, but the central point is that the utility of more wealth is diminishing. That's why me giving you $1B would make a massive difference, but then me giving you another $1B would make almost no difference to your lifestyle/happniess/whatever measure you choose.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#534
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that confusing cause and effect? You’re getting interest because they’re paying it to you. They wanted to borrow, and even if there’s no risk, you won’t lend it out for free.

One might argue about the relative value of interest rates vs risk, but all lending incurs risk. Maybe very little, but non-zero.

But as an academic exercise, you can stipulate risk free lending as axiomatic, and still see that a natural interest rate comes from different inter temporal marginal preference for money among entities in the economy. It’s only zero if everyone’s preference is identical.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#535
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only two measures of money: No money and not enough money. (Steinbeck)

I can't find it, but I think pg also said something like "when you're 20 if you're not doing bad you feel good. When you're 50 if you're not doing good you feel bad."

Which seems like common sense. A 50yo has fewer years to with to save up for any retirement, they face age discrimination, increasing health issues, etc. A 20yo has many years to work and pivot on case of setbacks, less age discrimination, usually fewer health issues.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#536
post #366
post #35

How about we just don’t empower a central planning body to make monetary decisions that devalue wages & salaries while inflating asset prices? QE & LIRP have literally been “rich get richer, poor get poorer: the policy”. People educated enough in finance to follow the effect tend to be in the asset-holding camp so there is less complaint. I’m not advocating high rates as good for the poor; I’m championing shaping the…

The most frustrating part of economic arguments, right there. There is an official policy that prices will go up exponentially, controlled by a tiny committee who implements the policy by, effectively, money printing. The official justification is a just-so story with no compelling evidence that I've ever seen. We seem to have gotten there because politicians don't like sound management any more than anyone else and…

Which just-so story without evidence do you mean? Are you saying a liquidity trap does not exist? (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidity_trap)

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#537
post #6

Adding this to my reading list. I've thought for years that we should place at hard cap on wealth somewhere around $10 or $15 million. Because that's the point at which you have enough wealth to live a comfortably middle class lifestyle for the rest of your life, still pass down a substantial chunk to your children, and never have to earn another cent. I've argued we should combine this with a move towards a worker o…

That's terrible. Suppose you want to go some amount of social good that will cost you $15M. Let's say. Develop a new drug. Maybe you want to do something crazy, like don't patent it. It's clearly great for society. But nobody will give you money to do that. Your only recourse to do it is to amass wealth yourself and fund it personally. Now you have a created a society where that sort of social entrepreneurism is impo…

If this good were “clearly” great for society, they wouldn’t have trouble forming a conglomerate towards achieving it. We can use the wealth that isn’t sponged up and locked away at the bottom of the sea for such initiatives.

Society has had enough of ostensibly singular “great persons” inflicting their idea of the greater good on the rest of us in exchange for love, respect, and money. The rest of us have to earn those three.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#538

I always wonder, what would happen if all objects of desire that come from systematic manufactured want suddenly become borring

Do you have some examples of what those objects of desire might be?

Any product whose life span is usually much shorter than what it should be. A classic example from technology is "the new" iPhone. A classic example from clothing is "the new" Zara collection. A far bigger problem is that this manufactured want drives so much of our economy (employment mainly) while actually being ecologically unsustainable

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has worked extremely hard to acquire assets great than 15 million, who do you suggest has the authority to come and take some of it away from me. And what will they do with the resources they confiscate?

By what authority are those assets "yours" in the first place? Whence did those assets originate?

When one makes an agreement that if I set certain goals, and I achieve said goals, I will be compensated a certain amount.

If I choose to buy land, goods, services, the seller chooses the "value". If I agree on the value, I have free will to to purchase the land, goods or service. If I do not agree on the value, I can either offer a lower price, or walk away.

If I purchase said land, goods or service, and later decide that I no longer want those things, I can choose to sell them. At that point, I set a value. If the purchaser agrees on the value, I then sell/transfer ownership to that person. If the value has grown since I purchased said land, goods, service, I could potentially profit. If the value has not increased, I am at a loss.

So, to directly answer your question about "authority". (In my case, land that was owned, and worked, for 100 years in an area that no one wanted to live). A price for said land was agreed upon. The sale was advantageous for the seller as he no longer wanted to tend it. I assumed the risk, taxes, etc. Working said land was extremely arduous. Shepherding it through multiple hurricanes, floods, etc bore a financial burden. Many years later, as the area began to develop, my asset grew in value. Selling it produced a profit. This profit allowed me more ability to purchase other land, goods and services.

As I'm tying this, I'm certain you're aware of these basic economic principles, but simply don't agree with them. Disagreement is fine. But this is the way things are done in my country. And, I choose to live here because I agree with those principles. If I wanted to live in a country where an entity could come and confiscate my wealth, and redistribute it, those countries exist. I could likely move to one of them.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a difficult problem to reconcile capitalism and sustainability from a technical perspective. Just a question of political will. Carbon taxes. Water prices reflecting scarcity. Compensating people living in rain forests to not cut down their trees. Capitalism is still the best tool we have for setting prices and incentivizing efficiency. Just needs to be guided to place appropriate prices on externalities.

You’re confusing markets with capitalism Capitalism requires a philosophical split between labor, productivity, and capital ownership A market is simply a price clearing mechanism in the context of known exchange rates of commodities, you don’t even need money for it, and says nothing about the ownership composition of the actors making trading decisions

put this on a bumper sticker
Post reply on HN