Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry • Hacker News Board

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#241

Post by madsbuch » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:37 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #189

madsbuch wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is dangerous to assume that the US culture is the default culture. social trust is not a new thing in Scandinavia. it has been a part of the society for centuries. Denmark is arguably also more capitalistic than the US. the median wealth is almost double that of the US. hence the Danish system, despite some of the world's highest taxes, easier allow people to build wealth.

I understand. I was raised overseas, and am intimately familiar with non-US cultures. I love Scandinavian socialism, but I have also watched as US-style capitalism has permeated even the most resistant societies. The Internet, and the platform it provides for social contagion, are probably responsible for that. Additionally, it is easy to have socialism, with a relatively heterogeneous population, but nations like th…

I am curious, what do you mean with US-style capitalism?

Denmark, and EU by extension, is far from perfect. But I do see less oligarchy-leaning tendencies in the EU vs. the US. and I don't see that this is currently changing, quite the opposite.

My immediate understanding of US capitalism would be an oligarchic type of capitalism where regulation favour those with wealth already.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#242

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:37 PM UTC

poisonborz wrote: post #208

noodlesUK wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were already costs. There were always costs and risks associated with cash handling: armored trucks doing cash collection, risks of money in tills being lost. If it really were a lot cheaper you wouldn’t see businesses clamouring to go cashless. That’s not to say I think cash should go the way of the dodo, but I don’t think there’s that much difference paying g4s to collect your money vs Mastercard. IMO the ben…

These are even higher for digital, all the associated software development, audits, etc. That processing fee is on top of this, and is easily variable.

You need exactly the same level of software durability for cash handling; see the Post Office scandal, where the computer system was misrecording cash transactions.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#243

Post by MSFT_Edging » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:38 PM UTC

darrenf wrote: post #23

superkuh wrote: post #9

I will always recall the chaos of being in a northern Minnesota tourist town (Ely) when the single fiber-optic line serving the region was cut. I sure was glad our group brought cash. All the people with only third party companies willing to pay for them some time in the future had their trips and plans ruined. But that's sort of a trivial example. It could be much worse. And then there's the rent seeking inherent in…

> Plus cash is just so much more convient and faster. There are many reasons I'm not anti-cash, but I am really struggling to think of a single example of this specific statement being true. Just acquiring cash at all means I have to take time out of my day, repeatedly, to make withdrawals. Then I have to carry it securely ( as well as the cards I need to get hold of more), which is annoying at the best of times and…

Cash is faster in situations where you tip. You don't need exact change, just cost of service + tip and you can walk away.

I still love using cash in restaurants because the credit card dance adds 10 minutes waiting at an empty table. The server always drops off the check and runs, as if I'll need to think about the 43 dollar bill, getting them back is a whole thing, then waiting for them to return with my card and 3 receipts I don't want is another.

Since I'm in the states, i'm already tipping. I put down a few bills and go about my way. Same for things like pizza delivery, why pay part on credit then tip at the door(because basically no company gives the e-tips to the driver, you're just donating money to the company at that point).

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#244

Post by yard2010 » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:38 PM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #182

CraigJPerry wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bank of England destroys between 10-30 billion pounds worth of notes per year (no longer fit for circulation). Sterling has other issuing banks too beyond BoE. I don’t think it’s possible to measure 1m notes going absent by any observable metric. Even if it were possible, the purchasing power wouldn’t change - you coffee shop wouldn’t reduce their prices but they might adjust staffing levels in an extreme case (n…

"The Bank of England destroys between 10-30 billion pounds worth of notes per year (no longer fit for circulation)." The difference is that when BoE destroys notes they are accounted for by either the issuing of new notes and or crediting their withdrawal with a bank-entry credit thus the money in circulation does not change. Burning notes willy nilly effectively reduces the amount of currency in circulation because…

I believe he meant it's such a low number it wouldn't be relevant anyway - same as merging facebook accounts with wifey to not take that space on facebook

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#245

Post by infinitecost » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

yaky wrote: post #113

The other day, I paid cash at the local Chinese-American place, and the owner said "thank you for using cash, it helps small businesses", which took me by surprise. So I asked how much card processors charge, and she went on a bit of a rant, listing processing fees for everything from regular debit cards* charging 3-4% to rewards credit cards being around 7% to special international or world credit cards charging som…

What part of the world? In the US at least this experience would only apply to a business owner that was getting absolutely fleeced by their processor.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#246

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

Haha, Americans with their 2-4% transaction tax, it’s so funny.

No seriously, when I first moved to the Netherlands I was wondering what kind of backwards country wouldn’t let me use a credit card at the grocery store. And that’s when I learned about how crazy it is that credit cards and even American debit cards have such needlessly high transaction fees.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#247

Post by fzeroracer » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

happytiger wrote: post #194

moooo99 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re pretending as if there weren’t any costs associated with handling cash. There’s almost always a handling fee if you want to put the cash into an account, which you will need to do if you want to pay people that are somewhere else than you are. If you have larger quantities…

I’m not. Visa and Mastercard collected $138 billion in service fees in 2021. They are among the most profitable companies in the world. You’re pretending that cash handling is a binary. You need a blend. For example, after extensive testing we are not going to send wire transfers exclusively in gold bricks. Though the loss weighs heavy on me. But you should be very careful in eliminating cash. I assume cash handling…

The fact that you immediately assume that something doesn't exist because you don't encounter it is insanely presumptuous of you.

The entire reason why small businesses moved away from cash is because its cheaper even taking into account fees. Food trucks, popups, small merchant kiosks. Not needing to take cash means far less overhead.

You're more than welcome to argue the benefits of cash transactions and in most cases I would agree. But you should not miss the truth of the situation.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#248

Post by tyfon » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:40 PM UTC

noodlesUK wrote: post #152

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

There were already costs. There were always costs and risks associated with cash handling: armored trucks doing cash collection, risks of money in tills being lost. If it really were a lot cheaper you wouldn’t see businesses clamouring to go cashless. That’s not to say I think cash should go the way of the dodo, but I don’t think there’s that much difference paying g4s to collect your money vs Mastercard. IMO the ben…

I work in a bank and cash handling is a major headache in terms of internal control, logistics, reconciliation and AML. It's a large extra cost.

It is much cheaper for the bank and customers to use cards, but where I live the banks own a payment network that does not involve visa and mastercard so the cost is much lower and there is no rent seeking so card use have no fees.

We also have an app for sending "cash" for free to friends, family and businesses that under the hood are just instant bank payments between the accounts.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#249

Post by solatic » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:40 PM UTC

nonrandomstring wrote: post #102

There are two fallacies I frequently feel the need to debunk in this discussion. - Cash is anonymous - Cash is an "old" or "low" technology. When a serious crime is committed you might be surprised how much the police can do to trace cash. Serial numbers in and out of ATMs and shops are tracked, and frequently your face is captured by cameras in stores, ATMs and vending machines. Modern cash is high technology . Look…

You're making an argument which is a variant of "if I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to hide." Privacy is a worthwhile value in and of itself, not least of which because different people have different notions of what "wrong" is and their conception of "wrong" changes over the course of their life.

An example list of completely legal transactions which you might not want someone in your life knowing about:

  a) You don't want your spouse to know that you bought some beers / fast food / pornographic magazines / cigarettes / other vice
  b) You don't want your employer to know that you saw a therapist / oncologist / family planning services
  c) You don't want your parents to know that you bought contraception
  d) You don't want your car insurance provider to know that you purchased a repair from a mechanic (i.e. you don't want your rates increased).

Making payments in cash is making a decision for them not to be entered in some database which may be hacked and sold for profit to someone who values their interests more than your privacy.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#250

Post by yard2010 » Sat, Feb 03, 2024, 2:40 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #64

croes wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They literally increased the purchasing power of each remaining pound by doing so. Did they. Notes aren't a limited resource and they can still be considered in the cashflow

Assuming they (or someone else) owned the notes, yes. By reducing their own holdings, they raised the value of everyone else's. If the notes were counterfeit or had otherwise managed to come into existence without being owned by anyone, then no.

It's confusing to think about money as a relative not absolute resource