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Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

prospectmagazine.co.uk

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Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#231

Post by solatic »

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

Banks sometimes charge fees to make cash withdrawals from ATMs, even ATMs belonging to the same bank that holds your account (true at least in my personal case, outside the US).

If you are paid via direct deposit, you're financially incentivized to stay cashless. The direct cost of spending via debit/credit card (if one doesn't carry a balance) is zero, compared to the cost of withdrawing cash.

If you want to inventivize salaried professionals to pay with cash, try outlawing fees on ATM withdrawals first.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#232

Post by nonrandomstring »

seszett wrote: post #223
nonrandomstring wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some scenarios I hope you see as obvious: - you take out cash from an ATM. The machine is loaded with sequential or logged order of SN that can be matched to withdrawals and times. - you take that cash immediately to a vending machine or supermarket auto-checkout that takes notes. The machine scans all notes it ingests and can match them to timings and purchase details. - Even a small shop might have a camera at the…

> - you take that cash immediately to a vending machine or supermarket auto-checkout that takes notes. The machine scans all notes it ingests and can match them to timings and purchase details. I can tell you they don't do that, at least for the systems I know in Europe. And for manual systems obviously the cashier doesn't record serials and match them to transactions.

I'd love to hear more about what you know about the systems you've examined or designed. PM me at cybershow.uk and we might do an episode and bring in some other engineers too.

Specifically can you prove (or give compelling anecdotes why) the linear CCD array used to determine the legitimacy of the note cannot, on internet connected machines, retain and store that scan? I know that's a tall order, because I'm asking a negative.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#233

Post by CommanderData »

The ability to shutdown any persons the government doesn't like using any growing list of $Excuses is worrying.

Currency is a freedom to perform transaction and arguably a given right, it's existed since humans learnt trade.

Cash allows anyone to transact without a prerequisite or control. Two parties. Centralised digital currency will change it.

That worry doesn't even include the privacy concerns and as systems become centralised either through standards or legislation. It will be easy to track someones habits or location globally.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#234

Post by Workaccount2 »

beAbU wrote: post #166
happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

And yet, when last did you get a 3-4% discount when paying cash? I remember that from the 90s and 00s. In fact, I have seen some small places ask a 3-4% surcharge for cash payments, because banks don't process cash for free any more.

I have never seen a place with extra fees for cash. However I know many small shops that give discounts for cash or only take cash for small purchases.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#235

Post by cubefox »

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

There are now systems that are far cheaper than credit cards or debit cards. In the US it's called: FedNow. The system enables direct bank transfers in real-time, almost for free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow

The support is still very limited, but in India a similar system (UPI) managed to become ubiquitous.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#236

Post by Espressosaurus »

gruez wrote: post #206
caeril wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s almost always a handling fee Citation needed. I've been depositing cash for years, with multiple banks, and nobody has ever charged a "handling fee". > safe transportation of the funds Yes, a lot of people have this irrational reaction to carrying large amounts of cash, as if your unremarkable Toyota miraculously sports a giant "BRINKS" logo every time you carry cash, attracting the attention of would-be cr…

>Citation needed. I've been depositing cash for years, with multiple banks, and nobody has ever charged a "handling fee". It's a fee associated with business accounts. > https://www.bankofamerica.com/smallbusiness/deposits/resourc... >Cash Deposit Processing No fee for first $7,500 in cash deposited per statement cycle at an ATM or Financial Center; then $0.30 per $100 deposited thereafter

0.3% vs. 3-4%

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#237

Post by madsbuch »

_xivi wrote: post #213
ACS_Solver wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Sweden, a strong contender for the most cashless country, and I don't know what the banknotes look like. They were changed some 5 or 6 years ago and I haven't paid with or even withdrawn cash since then. For illustration, cash is generally not accepted outside of grocery stores and some chains. For a typical restaurant, coffee shop or takeaway there's very little chance they take cash. Street vendors may take…

> I really don't like cash and am happy to see it basically dead in the country. What would you do in case of a emergency or natural distaster? Basically a situation where any of the following is not available for any period of time: power, network, financial infrastructure, access to digital devices. 1. On personal level: Maybe your wallet and phone was stolen 2. Region: Power/Network is down 3. National level: the…

This is usually the go-to arguments for cash, though I think it is not the right ones. The right argument is privacy.

These things can be handled easily: In case of an emergency you can just revert to writing credit notes to each other, which is is spirit the same as cash (contracts denoting that someone owes you something).

> On personal level: Maybe your wallet and phone was stolen

This is the same as forgetting to withdraw money and an unfortunate accident. It is also handled quite well already, as modern people have credit cards in their wallet, in their phone and on their watch. So there is already a 3-way backup that needs to break.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#238

Post by nabeards »

svggrfgovgf wrote: post #207

Does anyone check their credit card bills or bank statements to be sure that all of the charges are valid and for the correct amount? It seems like if you use electronic payment for everything there would be a lot of items to verify. Or do you just assume there's never any errors?

Yes, we do. But nobody we know does. We are fanatic at tracking our spending too, though, and that seems to be a dying art.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#239

Post by scotty79 »

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

Exchanging value between two economical entities using pieces of paper seems crazy when you have better ways.

Try to explain buying with cash in 200 years to someone who never seen it.

What if I need to pay just a little, do I tear a bit of the paper?

No, you can't tear. If your piece of paper is worth too much then the seller gives you other pieces of paper worth less.

Can I throw out the rest of paper after I'm done buying?

Not unless you want to lose a piece of your value.

What if I don't have enough pieces of paper on me?

Then you can't buy.

So I should just carry all my worth in pieces of paper on me at all times?

That's a bad idea because when you loose this paper or it gets stolen or destroyed you no longer own their value.

Where do I get the paper from? Your employer can five it to you every month or week and you hold it in your home. Alternatively employer transfers the value to the bank normal way and when you need paper the bank can dispense it to you through various devices or service points.

Are any of those devices handheld?

Unfortunately no.

What if my house get burned down or robbed?

Then you lose all the value associated with all the papers kept there.

And so on.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#240

Post by jusssi »

j7ake wrote: post #230
beAbU wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, when last did you get a 3-4% discount when paying cash? I remember that from the 90s and 00s. In fact, I have seen some small places ask a 3-4% surcharge for cash payments, because banks don't process cash for free any more.

Cash only restaurants are often 10-20 percent cheaper than comparable restaurants.

That would be because at least some of the cash bypasses the cash register and the tax report.

Edit: alternatively they might not have same profitability requirement as other restaurants, because a cash-only restaurant is perfect front for money laundering.

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