Want good programmers? Then pay them. • Hacker News Board

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#161

Post by elliottcarlson » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:27 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #158

ntkachov wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he meant that if there is a serious crisis he might stay. Sure, every once in a while a tornado sweeps through your data center. That happens once every other year. "We need you to stay till midnight because a very serious VC is coming in and this project needs to be done" is not a crisis. Serious stuff happens, it does not happen every other week.

"under no circumstances do I work more than 40 hours a week." Should we take him at his word or assume that he isn't precise when speaking? Both are bad signs.

Exactly - I would completely understand someone insisting on a work/life balance - I want it, and I have no problem with people wanting that; but seeing it worded that way is a red flag to me.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#162

Post by horsehead » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:28 PM UTC

Frankly, this is an issue in all industries. The company i work for is always complaining about the quality of people they have to hire. But then they offer salaries of $26,000 a year (not in software obviously).

But point is: to get quality, it costs money.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#163

Post by moocow01 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:30 PM UTC

juddlyon wrote: post #154

vaksel wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely. Unlike other jobs, you need to always update your skills, learning new languages. And there is no safety, since your position can always be outsourced by an MBA who wants to save the company a few bucks. And thanks to blackberry/remote computing, you are pretty much always connected to your job...and can be called in to work at night, on the weekends...and any time your boss pleases. And there…

"There are plenty of jobs that will both pay you more, require less hours, require less commitment, and will be a very safe career(from outsourcing)." Tell me more!

I'd imagine he is referring to sales/business/management roles which can tick a lot of those boxes in many cases but the type of work might drive a lot of engineer-types insane

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#164

Post by elliottcarlson » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:30 PM UTC

moocow01 wrote: post #142

elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

I'd rather suggest that we point fingers at an industry and employers that don't pay overtime for such scenarios before pointing fingers at each other.

I've grown accustomed to not getting overtime after over 15 years in the industry, and I make sure that my base salary covers a job where occasional overtime is possible. Should it be different - of course - but if you know that you are for example joining a startup, where the hours can be crazy and the expectations are high, then you should account for that. (Oddly enough, I am working less crazy nights at a startup than I did in the agency world).

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#165

Post by losvedir » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:33 PM UTC

elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

40 hrs a week doesn't necessarily mean 8 hours a day. I think it's a reasonable demand by someone that if they stay late one day putting out a fire they're free to leave early on Friday or something.

It was sort of like this at one of my previous finance jobs where I was expected to work no more than 60 hours a week (due to their allotment towards me of salary + overtime). Sometimes on Friday I'd get to leave a bit after lunch, which was nice. Although that did mean earlier that week was kinda rough...

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#166

Post by marcusf » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:33 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #145

marcusf wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$40k entry level is competitive? That's a whole factor of three away from the $120k people volley around here for entry level jobs in the valley. It's really that much of a difference?

Yes. First of all, where are you getting this $120k number for entry level people from? Very few actually get $120k right out of school. According to WSJ we just surpassed $100k as average , and remember that includes senior people making $200-400k at Google et al. Top companies who are selecting the cream of the crop can afford to pay this because they know how to get great talent and make the most of it. If startup…

This might be something I've conjured up in the back of my head, but I'm certain I've seen people talking about $100k+ as a salary for an MIT grad. It's always seemed crazy exuberant to me so I'm glad to hear different.

In the comparison with Europe, it's always good to keep in mind that benefits differ wildly between Austria, Portugal, the UK, Sweden, Estonia, …. But yes, there is much to be said for at least the Swedish benefits. A five week vacation, free universities, free healthcare, harder to be fired (complete inability is more of an italian thing), etc.

I'm definitely not complaining, but with a comparable entry level salary ($40k vs $55k for me when I started), something close to comparable taxation (I paid a total income tax of about ~27% that year, what's US levels, 20%? 25%?) and all our benefits, it feels like you guys get the very short end of the stick, which is a completely different message than gets bandied around by the media.

*Edit: Just did some reading and realized I seem completely off base on my income tax estimates for the US. I'll let it stand for posterity.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#167

Post by danssig » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:33 PM UTC

elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

He said 40 hours a week, not 8 hours a day. For example, he could end up working 20 hours for two days in a row. Or he could mean as an average. This is what I do. I may put in a 60 hour week, but I'll be taking time off where I can until I get back to a 40 hour average.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#168

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:33 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #145

marcusf wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$40k entry level is competitive? That's a whole factor of three away from the $120k people volley around here for entry level jobs in the valley. It's really that much of a difference?

Yes. First of all, where are you getting this $120k number for entry level people from? Very few actually get $120k right out of school. According to WSJ we just surpassed $100k as average , and remember that includes senior people making $200-400k at Google et al. Top companies who are selecting the cream of the crop can afford to pay this because they know how to get great talent and make the most of it. If startup…

[deleted]

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#169

Post by kd0amg » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:35 PM UTC

marcusf wrote: post #88

dasil003 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually $40,000+ because they get paid 14 salaries. Given the other benefits of living in Europe, this is competitive with the US in general (not Silicon Valley) for entry level programmers.

$40k entry level is competitive? That's a whole factor of three away from the $120k people volley around here for entry level jobs in the valley. It's really that much of a difference?

I don't know about the US in general, but $40k for entry level sounds about like what I've heard for the upper Midwest.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#170

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 03, 2012, 2:36 PM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #144

malandrew wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't get paid based on your cost of living. You should get paid on value added. TBH, I don't see why living in the midwest should drop the salary a company owes you that much. If you are a good developer, you should command a salary comparable to the value you add plus a profit margin for the business. The only two explanations I can see is that, collectively, software engineers in the midwest are simply not…

That's an overly simplistic way to look at it. There's a reason jobs in Timbuktu don't pay the same as jobs in NYC for any job type - all jobs from janitor to CEO. This is not unique to IT. You have to start by paying people a FAIR wage to cover their living expenses, and it goes up from there based on skills and experience. If you flatly reject a job that doesn't pay you based on some mythical calculation of "value…

I don't see anything wrong in getting paid proportional to 'value added' for one simple reason : My employer makes the same money as somebody in another geographical area but wants to pay me less than what he would be paying me in that geographical area. The difference goes in his pocket, while extracts the same work from me.

FAIR wage is not meant to cover your living expenses, they supposed to compensate you for your time, effort and results. This isn't slavery, we are no longer working for merely surviving at somebody else's mercy.