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Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#421

Post by anonymous »

verticalscaler wrote: post #146
tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stories about COVID controversies are almost certainly getting flagged off the front page by users, not touched by mods. People look at the titles of these stories and think that's all flaggers are going by, but lots of people flag stories based on their experience of what the threads are like, and the threads on COVID controversies are fucking dreadful. I didn't flag (or see) that story, but I would have.

But why must they be dreadful? Genuine question, I am not being obtuse. We should be able as a community to discuss conterversial subjects somehow. I also think this sort of thing invites flag brigades. Or better yet, a small batch of bad actor can easily start brigading and forcefully associate such flamewar expectations with any subject they don't like to drive it off HN. Maybe worth reconsidering how you flag? You…

No post body was provided.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#422

Post by elpocko »

nkurz wrote: post #322
elpocko wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "force" is actually one or two people. It's hard to prove and impossible to change. No one will believe you, either.

Could you make your accusation more clearly? Are you saying it's 'dang' and 'pg'? One or two regular users abusing the flagging system? Or a couple dark and shadowy figures who have no public presence?

I don't mean to make accusations or invent "shadowy figures". HN has a very small number of moderators and their actions are not transparent, that's all.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#423

Post by dang »

wtallis wrote: post #99
ggdG wrote: post #89

> In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. I don't understand why this story was removed: "It turns out the six-feet social-distancing rule had no scientific basis", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39200511 On a forum with an overwhelmingly science-minded audience, it bothers me that an important topic like that is deemed untouchable.

I think reading the top comment on that post provides plenty of explanation why users would flag that post. Perhaps you're trying not to understand.

Please don't cross into personal attack. It just makes everything worse, and you can make your substantive points without that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#424

Post by dang »

ggdG wrote: post #89

> In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. I don't understand why this story was removed: "It turns out the six-feet social-distancing rule had no scientific basis", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39200511 On a forum with an overwhelmingly science-minded audience, it bothers me that an important topic like that is deemed untouchable.

(I detached this from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39230689 for reasons explained below.)

The subthread your comment generated here already answers your question. (It's not that the topic itself is "untouchable". HN had quite a few threads about the lab leak hypothesis for example. But these things are sensitive to initial conditions, and something about the way that headline frames the story feels doomed to me, from an HN point of view. The good stuff for HN is substantive, thoughtful conversation driven by intellectual curiosity. That's what the site is for. We don't always get there by any means, but I only want to turn off user flags when the odds give us a fighting chance. I remember seeing that story get flagged and thinking: it'll never work.

Another aspect of this: like it or not, curiosity and repetition have an inverse relationship. After the mind has been hammered with the same hammer enough times, curiosity gets sick of it and goes "ugh, not that again". That means that on a topic like all-things-covid, which we all got hammered with, the majority of the audience, who don't care that much, check out at first mention of the topic. Who does that leave? The ones whose motive is more intense than mere curiosity.

From an HN point of view, that's a ticket to hell. Curiosity can only operate within a certain range of nervous system activation. If the needle sinks too low, the topic is 'bleh' and nobody cares; but if the needle goes into the red, people will care—my god will they care—but they'll no longer be functioning out of curiosity. That's a failure mode for HN.

When it comes to divisive, heavily-covered topics like that one, the thing to watch for is some kind of interesting new information that isn't entirely reducible to existing battle lines. The same forces driving the thread into flamewar will still be present—but at least you'll have some current running the other way.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#425

Post by dang »

tmaly wrote: post #172
a12k wrote: post #3

Looking at the list of removed stories makes me really happy with the moderators here. They're all sensationalist, advertising for some company, clickbait, way off topic, or some combination of above. In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. Thanks, mods.

Props to the mods for keeping the post quality high. However, I do see a few decent posts in this list that probably warrant a second chance.

Happy to look at specific links if you want to mention any!

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#426

Post by dang »

kortilla wrote: post #229
a12k wrote: post #3

Looking at the list of removed stories makes me really happy with the moderators here. They're all sensationalist, advertising for some company, clickbait, way off topic, or some combination of above. In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. Thanks, mods.

The moderators are mainly the users. Flags are what kills a story quickly

You're right, but I'd like to add that we do turn off flags sometimes when we think a story (a) has a good (if not high) chance at a substantive discussion and (b) hasn't had much discussion previously. If anyone notices such a case, they're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we'll take a look.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#427

Post by dang »

bradly wrote: post #345
dang wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We haven't touched those stories except reduce the penalties on them (user flags mostly) and moderate them less than we normally would (per https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... ). I put one back on the front page last night despite this contradicting every principle HN stands for—every other principle, that is, than the first one, which is that we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC…

@dang Thank you for the info. One questions I do have–I would guess posts critical of HN/YC are going to get a log of flags and have not the best discussion. This has a side affect of biasing the home page to not have posts critical of HN/YC. Do you see this as a problem?

> posts critical of HN/YC are going to get a log of flags

You can take this with a grain of salt as I'm obviously not the most neutral observer, but from everything I've seen (which at least is a lot!), yes they get a lot of flags, but they get even more upvotes. It's hard to say which side wins out in the tug-of-war. The tendency towards negativity that jsnell's comment describes is very real, and it's on the upvote side in these cases.

Most probably the tug of war goes one way some of the time and the other way the rest of the time. The funny thing is that as mods, we have to have a regulating influence either way. What I mean is that if a rage story hits the top of the front page, we'll downweight it (though not necessarily all the way off the front page); but if a rage story about YC gets too many flags, we'll reduce those or remove them altogether. The recent shitfest is a good example; let me dig up some links for you... Edit: oh wait, I already mentioned those links in the GP. Sorry, I'm getting a bit tired here!

Did I answer your question?

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#428

Post by wtallis »

dang wrote: post #423
wtallis wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reading the top comment on that post provides plenty of explanation why users would flag that post. Perhaps you're trying not to understand.

Please don't cross into personal attack. It just makes everything worse, and you can make your substantive points without that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

That comment lined up pretty closely with one of my pet peeves. I apologize for overreacting and contributing negatively to what was already a busy day for you. Thank you for all your hard work and patience.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#429

Post by paulcole »

a12k wrote: post #3

Looking at the list of removed stories makes me really happy with the moderators here. They're all sensationalist, advertising for some company, clickbait, way off topic, or some combination of above. In fact, I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed. Thanks, mods.

> I don't see a single story that I personally feel should not have been removed

Another way to look at this is that the mods have the same biases you do. Depending on how you’re feeling on a given day, you could call that an echo chamber.

Re: Stories removed from the Hacker News Front Page, updated in real time

#430

Post by paulcole »

mkl wrote: post #367
reductum wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I witnessed a recent front page link silently get changed to point to a parody video, then silently changed back later, with the top comment that remarked on the change silently removed. That told me all I needed to know about the moderation of this site. Thankfully someone captured a screenshot: https://merveilles.town/@cancel/111834048502040552

Dang explained it was a mod error: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39182625 , which links to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39170137 huppeldepup's comment in the screenshot is collapsed on p2 of the comments (after it was no longer relevant) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39157010&p=2 , and is also accessible as the parent of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39170137 .

What did you think he was going to say? Explain that it was in fact a big HN conspiracy?

I mean yeah it probably was just a mistake but what do you expect somebody to say?

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