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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#101

Post by sanxiyn »

dasil003 wrote: post #80
sanxiyn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: basic skills. I think we have a big problem with schools. Why don't they teach how to test? Why don't they teach how to debug? Really, what are they teaching that is more important than these basic skills?

They do teach those things, but a classroom context can not replicate the reality of large-scale long-lived multi-developer projects. There's just not enough time in a college degree to give any realistic approximation of that, plus what does the academic world know about that? They're not qualified to put together that curriculum, and what's the point anyway since you can learn it in the trenches at any company out…

There is no substitute for hard-won experiences, but debugging is a skill that can be taught. The academic world (well, some part of it) knows about debugging and is surely qualified to put together a curriculum. Really, go read "Why Programs Fail".

http://www.whyprogramsfail.com/

A lot of what I know about debugging I learned in the trenches, but I also learned a lot from that book. My question is that why I had to discover this book myself, instead of being taught.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#102

Post by pavlov »

kitsune_ wrote: post #55
pavlov wrote: post #7

Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Probably not. Most programmers don't have any idea what software sells and how to sell it.

I seriously doubt that. It's not like most programmers live in a bubble and never have contact with other people. As a programmer you usually accumulate detailed domain knowledge in a variety of industries. You often end up knowing more about the core business of a company than their individual stakeholders and employees. Programming requires specifications, and often, an IT project forces companies to identify and f…

The OP is writing about an "entry level programmer with high level university training".

Someone fresh out of university probably hasn't accumulated useful domain knowledge from real-world industries. Hence the suggestion of "Avoid getting a job, just program something for money!" seems dubious.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#103

Post by berntb »

dasil003 wrote: post #73
kamaal wrote: post #59

Well this looks like the story of nearly developer community no matter which part of the world you are in. Lets face it 'monthly salaries' suck. Programmers are a unique lot, Well last few weeks I've been pulled up for work on weekends. Almost 18 hour schedules a day. And what do I get in return? Not even a thank you. Its presumed to be a part of my job. Any other profession and unions would be up in arms about bonus…

You're pretty jaded. And believe me I've been through all of this as well. I've been underpaid and overworked for sure. But put things in perspective. Being a skilled programmer is one of safest careers you could have in these days of cold economic downturn. Instead of worrying about being downsized, realize that even a company in the red can afford to hire you to automate processes which currently require paid emplo…

>>Being a skilled programmer is one of safest careers you could have in these days of cold economic downturn.

This is temporary luck, which will probably be different in the next downturn. (Just consider the IT death, ten years ago.)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#105

Post by abhaga »

bgilroy26 wrote: post #84
abhaga wrote: post #35

This is like saying, "Want diamonds? Pay for them!" which, I agree, is an entirely valid statement. But the reason the diamonds/good programmer are so expensive has little to do with their inherent value. It has more to do with lack of supply. A B level player will not suddenly graduate to A level if you start paying him higher.

Who is DeBeers in this analogy?

I don't have a very good answer to that but in India, our education system is certainly a big shareholder. And the job security afforded even at low skill levels due to outsourcing, another.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#106

Post by adpirz »

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

So, I'm outting myself as outsider here but:

In five sentences or less, could you describe how you got to be the programmer you are today? I.e., skilled enough to be commanding the kinds of benefits you do? It's mostly out of curiosity, I'm not looking to get directly involved with programming.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#107

Post by Wilya »

throwaway1979 wrote: post #61
Wilya wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, the US companies probably have also more money to throw at the problem than those of any other country. Everytime I see someone speak about the absurdly high salaries around Silicon Valley and saying that they are too low, I cringe a bit inside.

Why do you cringe? Do you know what the average price of a house is in MV/Palo Alto/Sunnyvale? Cheapest housing I could find that was decent (not fancy but descent by my personal definition) was just over 2K/month in rent. 6 figures in Silicon Valley isn't the same as it is in most parts of the world. That said, what I find strange is that experience in software doesn't seem to be rewarded. I keep hearing about fresh…

A naive search shows you get a 1000 sq feet house for 2K$ in MV/Sunnyvale. If it's really true, that doesn't exactly sound a huge amount. Look at the rents in Paris or Stockholm, and imagine you're paid 50k$.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#108

Post by brunnsbe »

zeemonkee wrote: post #33
pmjordan wrote: post #13

Some context/perspective on the Austrian employment situation: * Salaries are typically quoted per month, but there is a bonus of 2 months's salary paid per year, so yearly gross is 14 x monthly. The bonus is taxed at a lower marginal rate (6%, no social security contribution, IIRC, vs 37.5% lowest marginal rate). * There is no fixed minimum wage in Austria. Instead, there is a collective bargaining system, which set…

I've had a similar experience in Finland - the shitty salaries (and lack of interesting work that isn't somehow tied to the sinking ship that is Nokia) are one reason I avoid Finnish companies like the plague, and just work for foreign clients. This is the reason Finnish companies don't advertise salary, which is common in the UK and US for example - it's all collectively bargained in some way out of your control.

In Finland IT-companies must pay a minimum salary for full-time workers, it's something around 2000 euros (source: http://www.teknologiateollisuus.fi/file/7960/ERTO_Tes_fi_201...) but the limit gets higher when you get more responsibility.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#109

Post by yummyfajitas »

DominikR wrote: post #92
accountoftheday wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one way to think of it: with your average salary you are propping up all the people not as good as you who still get the same salary. if you cannot feel good about this you then move away from your socialist country. I did.

Well, I've been thinking about moving from Vienna to somewhere more competetive for some time (though its not about the money, I'm paid really well here - just about competition, which I happen to enjoy a lot), but the reasons for not doing it are some of the features you get when living in a more "socialist" (though I wouldn't call Austria socialist) country. Security, low crime rate, very few homeless people, drug…

Sure, I would probably earn more if I did the same job in San Francisco, but then I would have to deal with a much worse social situation, and I would have to be more cautious.

Does the crime rate actually differ much between SF and Vienna? A quick google search provides very little info, but suggests there is not much difference. I haven't been to SF lately, but crime is a negligible issue in NYC.

Though SF may be a special case - I've heard they have extremely generous benefits and the homeless move to SF to collect them. Can someone with more knowledge comment?

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