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Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

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Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#241
post #171

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> a society which taxes inelastic goods and negative externalities and returns that wealth to the public over one which does not. The problem is that this kind of society, even if we assume for the sake of argument that it would be preferable, is not really achievable politically. The only way to implement it is to have a government that has the power to coercively tax people, and all history shows that governments w…

There are countless programs that redistribute wealth. Welfare payments. Public education. Public health insurance programs. Retirement programs. Recently there has been a down swing in willingness to fund new programs that redistribute wealth. But that could change.

> There are countless programs that redistribute wealth.

They purport to, yes, but for most of them, when you dig into the details, you find that what redistribution actually occurs is not from richer to poorer, but the opposite. And much of the money spent on the programs doesn't go to the purported recipients of redistribution at all, but to third parties. (For example, you cite public schools as redistributing wealth--but government funds for public schools only pass through the hands of the families whose children need schooling in the case of school vouchers, which are fairly rare, and in any case the money doesn't stay with those people, it ends up in the hands of the schools themselves. Given the current state of education in the US, anyone who wants to make a case that whatever redistribution of wealth occurs actually benefits the children and families has a very tough case to make.)

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at each valuable item that you use often, now look up the salary of the leader of the company that made it. Edit: You wouldn't have that item without that compensation. This should be more traumatic than people make it out to be. You wouldn't have your iphones, twitters, facebooks, vr goggles, steams, ikea tables, etc.

People of my opinion/disposition already know that CEOs make too much. You don’t have to indirectly tell me.

CEO pay in America was forced to be made transparent by Congressional law.

Shortly thereafter CEO pay started to skyrocket. There's no evidence CEOs started doing a 10x better job running companies but their pay sure as heck increased, 10x then 100x!

Countless studies have shown that workers are not motivated by money beyond around low six figures.

There is no reason to suspect a CEO earning $100 million is 100 times more dedicated to the job than one earning $1 million dollars.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a lot of faith, it seems, in the ability of the already rich to somehow make better decisions (by some metric) than an arbitrary political process. I have faith that an Olympic athlete is a lot better about making diet and exercise decisions than I am. I have faith that Mick Jagger is far better at crafting a new song than I am. I have faith that Tom Hanks could make a far better movie than I can.

> I have faith that an Olympic athlete is a lot better about making diet and exercise decisions than I am. Smart athletes let technocrats (e.g. scientists and doctors) make those decisions for them! In the case or billionaires, we know Zuckerberg is really good at making social media apps. That doesn't mean he's good at anything else! Plenty of talented rich people have demonstrated that given the chance they'll lose…

I bet you'll find their track record is a lot better than that of non-wealthy people. Most non-wealthy people I know do a lousy job of managing their finances.

Frontline ran an episode a few years ago about 401k plans. They found that the wealthier the employee was, the better returns they had on the company 401k plan, despite the fact that the plan was identical for all the employees.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#244
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a lot of faith, it seems, in the ability of the already rich to somehow make better decisions Not at all. A large fraction of the "already rich" did not get their wealth by productive efforts. They got it by convincing other people to take the wrong end of zero sum trades, thus siphoning wealth out of other people's pockets into their own. Even in the case of Jeff Bezos, who has certainly created a lot of…

> a significant part of it is due to Amazon playing zero sum games with its supply chain and its workers Why would any worker or supplier do an exchange with Amazon where they lose?

Because they don't realize it's a zero sum game until they're already playing it, and then their exit options are limited.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presupposes there is some way to know what human nature is. The best definition I've ever found is "altruistic and cooperative with an in-group, competitive and aggressive towards out-groups". And that doesn't say much at all on this particular point.

> This presupposes there is some way to know what human nature is. Empirical observation. Look what happened in all the 20th century communist countries.

Empirical observation is only a way to determine what is, and not what could be.

Since we know that human behavior ("nature") is substantively malleable, we need to know what could be, not merely what is.

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#247

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Whenever people talk about how much wealth is comfortable (or ethical) to have, its usually just a notch above their own (well within their social class status). To be fair I don't know your wealth at all but its just an observation I've had from talking with others about this. The end result of this would be to make these people some of the wealthiest in the country by dragging the wealth curve to just above their l…

> its usually just a notch above their own (well within their social class status). I'm a tech worker in the public sector. To be blunt: tax me more, please.

[deleted]

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#248

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> Why shouldn't a billionaire be capable of starting a genetics lab to fund cancer research and pay for it in cash, if they are so inclined? The answer might be "they should be able to" But are you open to the possibility of the answer being "Despite the apparent potential benefits, it isn't beneficial overall to society or humanity to have extremely rich individuals starting research projects, and perhaps not benefi…

Why would it be better to have fewer entities allocating large chunks of capital?

Who said anything about fewer?

Re: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think people go just for the money? There are a lot of healthcare systems where the wages aren’t that impressive and the hours are very long. There are benefits beyond money. Job satisfaction, societal standing, caring about people, etc etc.

I think most people go for the money. If you were to walk into any undergrad bio 101 class and announce: "sorry guys, but you can only make 80k a year," 95% of the students would leave immediately.

Those 95% would leave later anyway once the realized being a doctor wasn't just an easy paycheck.

There are far easier ways to make a ton of money than being a doctor.

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