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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#81

Post by kayoone »

Its pretty similar in germany. I know quite alot of people that do some more or less simple work for some of the big german industrial companies (cars, food stuff etc) and work 9-5, have alot of holidays and earn more than the average software developer that works his butt off. If you throw in a couple of late/night shifts at those jobs you will get a very good extra pay as well... as a developer ? you wish...

I think its because competition for dev jobs is much lower in europe because there is no Google, no Facebook, no Microsoft etc.

That said, if you work as a contractor for some of the big companies in cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Munich etc you can easily make 100K EUR, even as a bread and butter PHP dev.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#82

Post by pwaring »

This reflects my experience (UK) - I get recruiters asking me on a regular basis why they can't find any PHP developers, when I look at the job ad it's because the offers are things like 'experienced mid-level developer, 20-24k'.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#83

Post by dasil003 »

SatvikBeri wrote: post #44
mgkimsal wrote: post #6

most companies don't know how to value the contributions of software developers. i'm not actually sure they know how to value the contributions of most employees, period, except for salespeople. However as a dev, I'm biased some. I do think the potential for high value contributions, and the ability to avoid even costlier mistakes, is higher in the IT/dev dept vs other corporate departments. Several years ago I was o…

> How does one put a value on the savings experienced devs bring to a company, in terms of simply not making bone-headed decisions which cost a lot to fix later on? This is not saying I'm perfect - of course I'd make some mistakes. But mine would be harder to detect ;) Learning how to translate your value as a developer into dollars is an extremely useful skill that will help you gain a lot of respect and earn more.…

This is also the way that you can get paid what you are worth by a small non-technical company that knows nothing about software development and thinks of programmers as other employees that should be a paid a middling salary.

Granted the sword cuts both ways. A lot of companies really don't have the kind of business where a skilled software engineer can save enough money to justify a 6-figure contract, but on the other hand, a lot of them do and just don't know it.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#84

Post by bgilroy26 »

abhaga wrote: post #35

This is like saying, "Want diamonds? Pay for them!" which, I agree, is an entirely valid statement. But the reason the diamonds/good programmer are so expensive has little to do with their inherent value. It has more to do with lack of supply. A B level player will not suddenly graduate to A level if you start paying him higher.

Who is DeBeers in this analogy?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#85

Post by marcusf »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #76
marcusf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're willing to move, come to Sweden. Stockholm is screaming for IT talent, we're open to immigration and the pay for someone with a few years of developer experience is quite a bit beyond that.

Any tips for an American wanting to emigrate?

For non-EU peeps, it's a bit harder.

First, there's always the love visa -- find yourself a swedish girl and move here (you don't need to marry). On a more serious note, the easiest thing is to get a job at a Swedish company with a US presence (or vice versa) and get them to help you move. For example I know Spotify is recruiting aggressively and they have offices in Stockholm, SF and NYC. Most medium to big software companies here already has international people on staff and a lot of them has experience with the (comparatively little) bureaucracy required.

If you're any good and really serious about it, feel free to send me a mail (on my profile) and I'll see if I can help you out in any way :)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#86

Post by dasil003 »

adrianhoward wrote: post #78
dasil003 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think companies can get away with both those things if they have a good engineering culture. That is to say, if they respect the engineers enough to let them have a higher problem solving role than simply implementing what some non-technical manager passes down.

Surely "let them have a higher problem solving role" == doing interesting work? :-)

Yes I would agree with that, though it's non-obvious. I mean the best solution could be a CRUD app that would be the very epitome of boring to many seasoned programmers, and yet I think there will always be some smart programmers who will find it interesting if for no other reason then that they personally haven't done that type of thing before.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#87

Post by skrebbel »

pmjordan wrote: post #57
zeemonkee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about Austria, here it's a case of "well, this is the industry standard, why do you deserve more? - oh you're a foreigner? Just be grateful we even give you a job" (even if you speak Finnish). So, most employers don't go with it ;-) I'm quite happy with foreign clients as they pay better and the work tends to be more interesting - the only killer is the different timezones.

Yes, there is also a strong bias against employing non-natives (or at least non-Germanics) in Austria, orthogonal to the other issues, which was quite shocking after living the previous years of my adult life in the UK, which has a much more liberal culture. This bigotry is much less of an issue (I'd almost say a non-issue) in actual technology companies though. It's telling that the proportion of immigrants among th…

Interesting! This is nearly a 180 degree opposite in the Netherlands. Companies can't find the talent they need inside (because they pay them too little, but ok), so they try to attract foreigners. Foreign "knowledge workers" also get tax benefits for the first many years, and many employers (particularly consultancies and larger OEMs) have people specialized in getting foreigners a worker's visa.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#88

Post by marcusf »

dasil003 wrote: post #67
marcusf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more of an indicator of negatives rather than positives; A company that pays comparatively shit (€2200/month comes out to about $35000, seriously!?) will probably not be a place that respects developers and attracts talent.

It's actually $40,000+ because they get paid 14 salaries. Given the other benefits of living in Europe, this is competitive with the US in general (not Silicon Valley) for entry level programmers.

$40k entry level is competitive? That's a whole factor of three away from the $120k people volley around here for entry level jobs in the valley. It's really that much of a difference?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#89

Post by marcusf »

frou_dh wrote: post #30
marcusf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more of an indicator of negatives rather than positives; A company that pays comparatively shit (€2200/month comes out to about $35000, seriously!?) will probably not be a place that respects developers and attracts talent.

That's what the blog post already conveys :)

True, just wanted to hammer home the point.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#90

Post by kamaal »

dasil003 wrote: post #73
kamaal wrote: post #59

Well this looks like the story of nearly developer community no matter which part of the world you are in. Lets face it 'monthly salaries' suck. Programmers are a unique lot, Well last few weeks I've been pulled up for work on weekends. Almost 18 hour schedules a day. And what do I get in return? Not even a thank you. Its presumed to be a part of my job. Any other profession and unions would be up in arms about bonus…

You're pretty jaded. And believe me I've been through all of this as well. I've been underpaid and overworked for sure. But put things in perspective. Being a skilled programmer is one of safest careers you could have in these days of cold economic downturn. Instead of worrying about being downsized, realize that even a company in the red can afford to hire you to automate processes which currently require paid emplo…

>>if you really see it as a lottery then you're devaluing the impact that individual decision-making plays, and you will never be an A-player with that attitude.

I am not downplaying the efforts of so many individuals that make it big in start up's. And I know very well how hard people work, and that is precisely my point. All I'm saying sometimes you don't succeed despite best efforts, sometimes other things which have nothing to do with your performance go wrong.

There are many things that you can't control. That is OK. And despite all this, I will still keep trying, anyway.

My problem is that we are not paid in proportion to our work. And that most of the times becomes the biggest source of frustration and pain in our industry.

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