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'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

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Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#361

Post by kyleamazza »

s_dev wrote: post #340
nonrandomstring wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of people could do with hardening up a bit. How often have I heard that from bullies who shit themselves, whine and go running to mommy as soon as they get a little of what they give? You actually mean "shut up, roll over and passively accept abuse." Anyone who hardened-up, as in speaking their honest feeling and the truth about this sort of bully would be banned from here in 5 seconds! We don't have the opti…

Pursuing intellectual curiosity involves tolerating ideas or language or phrasing you don't like. The world is messy. Gary hasn't bullied or abused anyone. That is where the line is. The real answer is here is Gary could have phrased his words better and he would have been more effective in communicating his message. That's it.

There's a real leap in the phrasing of "die slow" as "I do not approve of your policies and hope that others are elected to improve the city".

Simply passing that off as "bad wording" is reductive and gives leeway to others who test the waters with extremism and turtle back into the shell of "I didn't mean it that way" when they get pushback.

It's not that Garry literally means he wants them to die, it's that it's irresponsible for a leader to infer that idea and to normalize (unintentionally, as I would give him the benefit of the doubt here) the same type of actions as actual extremists.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#362

Post by junon »

cj wrote: post #44

As a YC alum who worked with Gary Tan directly, this is… odd. Anyone who knows Gary knows he’s a (relatively) gentle human being. I can’t imagine him hurting a fly. His tweets seem totally out of character compared to the Gary Tan I personally knew. Maybe he has changed? I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It was a song lyric. Dumb, cringe tweet for sure. But not violent. People are so inclined to look for reasons to be mad. They all must be perfectly well-adjusted, down to earth, basically flawless people themselves. Clearly.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#363

Post by kyleamazza »

framapotari wrote: post #350
chomskyole wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A death threat by one of the richest persons = A small transgression when they apologise after the fact Seriously?

If I say to you "die slow", would you read it as me threatening to murder you?

Are you implying that it's not a threat of any kind? Regardless of how it's enacted? I would certainly rather be threatened with a nice day.

Especially in this climate, where the tip of a hat causes anonymous people to pile on and send threats via mail, it wouldn't be as simple as brushing it off.

The worst part isn't usually the initial threat, it's the piling on afterwards that can last for months and years afterwards.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#364

Post by VikingCoder »

sublinear wrote: post #358

> Tan “should not have done any of that. He should go for a while. He should not represent tech anymore,” I'd argue that anyone who cares this much should "go for a while". For over at least a decade now it's made no sense that we hold people in certain roles to a higher standard than anyone else. These high standards are a form of power transfer that hurts those who believe in them. Can't we just admit we're all hum…

We are all human, yes.

And when there's a leadership role, there are multiple people who are qualified.

It's okay to express your preference that the leadership role be filled by someone who doesn't go on a public, drunken, life-threatening rant.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#365

Post by astrobe_ »

janalsncm wrote: post #111

I have a pitch for a new LLM that will read your tweet before you send it and warn you if it is offensive. $1000/month, half off if you’re a CEO.

Won't work for people who write under "altered state of mind" conditions. You'll have to show them a fake page featuring the post, store the actual post in some sort of draft box and ask them if they really want to post it 24 hours later.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#366

Post by otikik »

s_dev wrote: post #291
tempestn wrote: post #257

I'm a little bit aghast at all the comments saying this is normal or no big deal. Maybe it is normal (or at least common), but it shouldn't be. If you believe it's no big deal, I can't agree. I can see this kind of behaviour from adolescents, but adults should understand that words are meaningful and have consequences, and that even if you disagree with someone, they're still a human being who deserves some modicum o…

>but adults should understand that words are meaningful and have consequences What consequences should Gary face?

I am not a lawyer, but if some deranged individual who follows him takes his comment and face value and murders someone, he will face many consequences.

Firstly, he would be involved on murder. That's not a great experience to have, for most people.

He would at least be on trial. I don't exactly know how incitement to murder is treated in the US.

It could even be considered domestic terrorism (an assassination made to intimidate a group based on an ideological agenda/government policy). Then, I don't know what would happen, exactly. The FBI would probably get involved?

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#367

Post by jzb »

s_dev wrote: post #310
tempestn wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main consequence to him so far has been a lot of people thinking less of him. It was also consequential for the subjects of the tweet, and to a much lesser extent, to all of us who've been exposed to it.

Okay sounds like he faced those exact consequences and a bunch of people are acting like victims because they chose to take him too literally. I don't think Gary really cares what you or some others think. He's developed a thick skin for this sort of stuff maybe others should too. I think more of him though. Sort of like when a polite old woman tells someone to fuck off and they're literally shook. A lot of people co…

A lot of people could do with learning more empathy. People shouldn’t have to be hard. People, especially over-privileged people like this, should learn how to behave like decent humans.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#368

Post by romwell »

gadders wrote: post #249
romwell wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's criticism, and there's saying " should die". If you can't tell the difference, you don't belong in public spaces or forums.

If that's the dividing line, I'm OK with it. If "XXX of party YYY is a disgusting piece of human garbage" than I don't think that should be called terrorism.

Yes, that's the dividing line.

Specific example that I linked:

>Rallies organized by Likud and other right-wing groups featured depictions of Rabin in the crosshairs of a gun. In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".

>Netanyahu denied any intention to incite violence

Rabin was subsequently shot dead.

The definition in Wikipedia says:

>Stochastic terrorism refers to political or media figures publicly demonizing a person or group in such a way that it inspires supporters of the figures to commit a violent act against the target of the speech.

Of course, direct "kill this person" language is not a requirement for that. "Won't someone rid me of this meddlesome priest?"[1] is a famous example from the 12th century.

>If "XXX of party YYY is a disgusting piece of human garbage" than I don't think that should be called terrorism.

By itself, it wouldn't be. However, if XXX of party YYY subsequently starts getting death threats or other harrassment as a result of this statement being made, there is a problem.

Which language a public person uses to indicate a target to their followers highly depends on the context and history of the particular public person and the group they are addressing.

Hopefully, you understand why doxxing[2] is problematic. There are real-life consequences for the person being doxxed. However, the language is perfectly benign; after all, there is no explicit call to action in an address, a phone number, a name.

Stochastic terrorism similarly leverages context and publicity to highlight targets. It's not about how you would interpret the message; it's about how the target audience interprets it.

In Tran's case, both the message (die slowly) and the target audience's interpretation (a call to harrasment) indicate that there was no miscommunicaiton.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#369

Post by kyleamazza »

anonymoushn wrote: post #255
Arainach wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posting that you want a group of city councilors to die is not normal behavior. It's not normal when sober, it's not normal on alcohol, it's not normal for any functioning member of society. Anyone saying these things is disturbing. The fact that someone who a number of people believe is intelligent and worth listening to would say such things is extremely disturbing.

When a group of people routinely cause harm to other people that is in aggregate much greater than the harm involved in them dying, I think it's understandable for the thought to come to mind.

The thought, yes, but a public post as the public head of a very publicly visible company?...

Go ahead and post it yourself, it seems reasonable, yes?

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#370

Post by romwell »

alpaca128 wrote: post #328
renewiltord wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, like a Che T-shirt doesn't mean you're endorsing the killing of political prisoners and stuff. Or that a George Washington statue endorses slavery. It's like a "you came at me but I'm going to beat you" lyric, not literally as Tupac meant it. Whatever, it's not intended to mean killing someone. But you have to be a colossal dumbfuck to say it like that to a bunch of people wise in the ways of the street pol…

These discussions here wouldn't exist if he'd just posted Tupac's portrait on Twitter. But he specifically quoted a sentence with a very clear and unambiguous meaning.

Not just that, he modified the sentence by replacing most of it with the names of SF politicians.

Pretty much the only part left intact was "die slowly".

This isn't a quote, this is an allusion.

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