Birth rates are falling in the Nordics. Are natalist policies no longer enough? • Hacker News Board

Re: Birth rates are falling in the Nordics. Are natalist policies no longer enough?

#151

Post by somenameforme » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 3:10 PM UTC

CRConrad wrote: post #148

somenameforme wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has a pretty interesting one. [1] It's been rising every year since 1998, but it comes with a huge asterisk. They had a good fertility rate (by Western standards at least) up until the 1990s. But the collapse of the Soviet Union and the migration to a market economy in the 90s sent everything into chaos, and the country ended up in defacto anarchy for about a decade. But I still think it's relevant, because it…

> the country ended up in defacto anarchy for about a decade. Kleptocracy, not anarchy.

Kleptocracy describes near to any any modern political system - "public service" could much more aptly be described as "self enrichment." So the term is neither particularly descriptive, nor relevant, in my opinion.

Re: Birth rates are falling in the Nordics. Are natalist policies no longer enough?

#152

Post by shadowgovt » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 6:14 PM UTC

CRConrad wrote: post #150

shadowgovt wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two forces at play here: 1) There's no set "right number" of people who should be living in northern countries, no rule that says we need to replace every emigrant (or unborn person) with an immigrant. If it's too expensive to live up north, maybe just... Fewer people just live up north. The population of Norway, right now, is higher than it's ever been in the country's history. Maybe a population decline looks more…

> the headcount shortfall from lower birth rate will be filled with skilled immigrants who like the climate NOBODY likes the climate.

Bah, that's not true. I happen to find it quite stimulating.

There's no bad weather, just bad clothing. ;)

Re: Birth rates are falling in the Nordics. Are natalist policies no longer enough?

#153

Post by kmeisthax » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:35 PM UTC

CRConrad wrote: post #148

somenameforme wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has a pretty interesting one. [1] It's been rising every year since 1998, but it comes with a huge asterisk. They had a good fertility rate (by Western standards at least) up until the 1990s. But the collapse of the Soviet Union and the migration to a market economy in the 90s sent everything into chaos, and the country ended up in defacto anarchy for about a decade. But I still think it's relevant, because it…

> the country ended up in defacto anarchy for about a decade. Kleptocracy, not anarchy.

People use anarchy in one of two ways:

- Capital-A Anarchist "late stage liberalism", i.e. a system in which all coercive or hierarchial power structures have been dismantled, including capitalism, nationalism, and the monopoly on violence that is the bedrock of all nation states.

- As a shorthand for chaos and violence caused by an inability to enforce laws.

The latter is a sort of denigration of the former, but it's become so commonly used that people assume it without thinking. To be fair to people using the word this way, there are very few examples of functionally anarchist places that aren't hellholes[0].

[0] The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_N... isn't explicitly capital-A Anarchist, but they also have adopted a lot of policies that Anarchists might like.

Re: Birth rates are falling in the Nordics. Are natalist policies no longer enough?

#154

Post by CRConrad » Fri, Feb 02, 2024, 1:38 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #152

CRConrad wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the headcount shortfall from lower birth rate will be filled with skilled immigrants who like the climate NOBODY likes the climate.

Bah, that's not true. I happen to find it quite stimulating. There's no bad weather, just bad clothing. ;)

Skitsnack spritt av friskusar som vill impa på andra (jag var också sådan, tills jag blev frusen på gamla da'r) eller av klädindustrin. Låt oss skylla på norrmännen, det var säkert Helly-Hansen.