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UNRWA-Hamas Relations

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Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#11

Post by gryzzly »

flooow wrote: post #7
H8crilA wrote: post #3

Hasbara is being very heavy handed these days. Hard to not see the connection between this campaign and the ICJ's decision on temporary measures in the genocide case, as the campaign was launched immediately after the decision was announced.

One has to assume this kind of propaganda isn't supposed to convince any objective observer but rather to provide cover to allow ongoing operations to continue for as long as possible before they get checked by the US.

So, the intelligence shared by the official elected government of one western country to the governments of other western countries and the UN is "kind of propaganda". What is "objective observer" is supposed to believe, what kind of source would be persuasive for the objective observer? Honest question.

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#12

Post by aprilthird2021 »

gryzzly wrote: post #11
flooow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One has to assume this kind of propaganda isn't supposed to convince any objective observer but rather to provide cover to allow ongoing operations to continue for as long as possible before they get checked by the US.

So, the intelligence shared by the official elected government of one western country to the governments of other western countries and the UN is "kind of propaganda". What is "objective observer" is supposed to believe, what kind of source would be persuasive for the objective observer? Honest question.

Yeah Western govs use Intel agencies for propaganda. This is very well documented

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#13

Post by gryzzly »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #12
gryzzly wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the intelligence shared by the official elected government of one western country to the governments of other western countries and the UN is "kind of propaganda". What is "objective observer" is supposed to believe, what kind of source would be persuasive for the objective observer? Honest question.

Yeah Western govs use Intel agencies for propaganda. This is very well documented

dear propaganda-meter person, please answer which sources are good for the propaganda-sensing objective observer?

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#14

Post by light_hue_1 »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #8
gryzzly wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah it’s cool that UN hires active terrorists and that the West sponsors that, is that you are saying? or are you saying this not true? What are you actually saying?

It's not true. Out of 13000 employees a dozen were found to have committed acts of terrorism and were fired immediately once this was found out. That is definitely not "hiring active terrorists". It's what any org of that size would do.

This is some nonsense.

So if I work at Google which has 156k employees, everyone would be ok when 156 of my coworkers murdered my children one day? Just the cost of working in an organization this size!

50k people work at my university. So 50 of them are about to sneak into our house and murder us?

Think about how stupid that line of thought is. If this was true for any organization we would have terrorist attacks all the time. We couldn't have a society with these numbers.

No this isn't what an org of this size should do.

These numbers are astronomical. UNRWA was infiltrated and its special access and privileges were to commit mass murder. Unless it radically changes it shouldn't exist anymore.

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#16

Post by gryzzly »

gryzzly wrote: post #11
flooow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One has to assume this kind of propaganda isn't supposed to convince any objective observer but rather to provide cover to allow ongoing operations to continue for as long as possible before they get checked by the US.

So, the intelligence shared by the official elected government of one western country to the governments of other western countries and the UN is "kind of propaganda". What is "objective observer" is supposed to believe, what kind of source would be persuasive for the objective observer? Honest question.

I want you to answer me, which bits are untrue in the following report: https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/unrwa-an-update

Is it quotes of UN managers who say “being part of hamas is not a crime” in 2004? or is it the videos of UN equipment being used by terrorists during October 7? or the videos of hostages from the personal phones of UN workers?

Please enlighten us!

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#17

Post by gryzzly »

gryzzly wrote: post #13
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah Western govs use Intel agencies for propaganda. This is very well documented

dear propaganda-meter person, please answer which sources are good for the propaganda-sensing objective observer?

what a surprise, no answer on your sources. I assume boasting you are reading Twitter and watching TikTok is not going to make your points be respected better by "objective observers".

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#18

Post by negidius »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #14
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true. Out of 13000 employees a dozen were found to have committed acts of terrorism and were fired immediately once this was found out. That is definitely not "hiring active terrorists". It's what any org of that size would do.

This is some nonsense. So if I work at Google which has 156k employees, everyone would be ok when 156 of my coworkers murdered my children one day? Just the cost of working in an organization this size! 50k people work at my university. So 50 of them are about to sneak into our house and murder us? Think about how stupid that line of thought is. If this was true for any organization we would have terrorist attacks al…

Gaza is a ghetto controlled by a genocidal group at war with another genocidal group. It's an active war zone. It's not comparable to Silicon Valley. How does the 0.001% of employees being accused of involvement in the October 7 attack compare with the adult population of Gaza? How does it compare with the adult population of Israel and involvement in attacks on Gazan civilians?

I think you are holding UNRWA to an impossible standard, and I think it's up to those who think it should be able to meet that standard to propose an alternative before proposing its abolition.

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#19

Post by gryzzly »

negidius wrote: post #18
light_hue_1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is some nonsense. So if I work at Google which has 156k employees, everyone would be ok when 156 of my coworkers murdered my children one day? Just the cost of working in an organization this size! 50k people work at my university. So 50 of them are about to sneak into our house and murder us? Think about how stupid that line of thought is. If this was true for any organization we would have terrorist attacks al…

Gaza is a ghetto controlled by a genocidal group at war with another genocidal group. It's an active war zone. It's not comparable to Silicon Valley. How does the 0.001% of employees being accused of involvement in the October 7 attack compare with the adult population of Gaza? How does it compare with the adult population of Israel and involvement in attacks on Gazan civilians? I think you are holding UNRWA to an im…

A relief agency that employs terrorists is being held to an impossible standard you think? It’s an impossible standard to not hire people who kill, kidnap and rape?

And btw, 12 out 12000 is 0,1%. Also, it’s more like 10% btw, and 50% having personal family ties to Hamas.

Re: UNRWA-Hamas Relations

#20

Post by negidius »

gryzzly wrote: post #19
negidius wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaza is a ghetto controlled by a genocidal group at war with another genocidal group. It's an active war zone. It's not comparable to Silicon Valley. How does the 0.001% of employees being accused of involvement in the October 7 attack compare with the adult population of Gaza? How does it compare with the adult population of Israel and involvement in attacks on Gazan civilians? I think you are holding UNRWA to an im…

A relief agency that employs terrorists is being held to an impossible standard you think? It’s an impossible standard to not hire people who kill, kidnap and rape? And btw, 12 out 12000 is 0,1%. Also, it’s more like 10% btw, and 50% having personal family ties to Hamas.

Sorry, that should have been 0.1%.

The claim about 10% doesn't seem to say much. What does it mean exactly for someone to be a "Hamas/PIJ operative"? Has UNRWA been told who these people are and what they have done? I suspect we will eventually find out if there was any truth behind the allegations against the 12 (or 13) specific people accused of involvement in the attack, but I doubt we will ever learn anything about the 10%. The 50% is completely meaningless. People are responsible for their own individual actions, not those of their family members.

My question remains, are UNRWA employees more likely to have been involved in or associated with atrocities than the average person in the region? Involvement and association doesn't necessarily mean that they personally committed those atrocities. How does this compare with the average Palestinian or Israeli? Should I boycott an Israeli company if 0.1% of their employees were involved in the commission of war crimes or other atrocities in the IDF, even if they were fired/suspended when the accusation came to light, and no one seems to be able to suggest what they should have done differently to avoid hiring them?

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