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Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

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Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#181
post #123
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but did Figma even need to sell in the first place? I've worked a company that was profitable, operated well, growing ... but were sold and the CEO said (I'll get the words not quite right): "I fought for keeping independent and not selling, that's how I've kept that company and I wanted it to stay that way. But the offer was increased into the range where I didn't feel like I could survive a legal challenge (if it…

It is anecdotes like this that make me think that the public shareholder model is fundamentally flawed and a large part of why many American companies are struggling to truly build long term value, and many once great companies have been destroyed by beancounters to bleating calls of shareholder value.

Don't worry - the conversation in the anecdote does not reflect the true position in the major common law countries at least. The public shareholder model is not doomed or flawed on this account.

If an acquirer wants to acquire shares in a public company (or any company actually) it makes the offer to the shareholders and they are the ones who decide to accept or not. The proposed transaction is between the acquirer (who wants to buy the shares) and the current owner of those shares (the shareholder). The Board manages the company but is not itself an entity (it's a group of people) and cannot therefore own shares (tho individual directors can and usually do).

The Board can make a recommendation to its shareholders about whether it thinks the offer is fair or not (based on their usually greater knowledge of the company and its worth), but it is the shareholder who decides whether to accept.

The underlying suggestion that a Board or CEO is essentially forced to do something bad for the company because of some underlying obligation to make shareholders money etc etc is false. Directors owe fiduciary duties, but they are proscriptive, not prescriptive in this way. One of the most commonly repeated falsehoods is that the Board is under some duty to maximise profits etc - that is proved wrong not least by the existence of non-profits...

The closest analogy is someone owns and investment property being managed by a real estate agent. A buyer approaches and says "I will pay you $x for the land". The agent can say "Hey I rent this out all the time, it can earn $z over t years, so I think it's worth $x + y, or $x - y" but it's up to the owner to say yes or no.

The above ignores eg competition law issues (laws that prevent an acquirer buying companies where there is likely to be a substantial lessening of competition), potential conflicts for share-owning directors, and the myriad statutory considerations etc but is the basic underlying position.

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Legal obligation to shareholders” is absolutely a thing, in the USA anyway. “Fiduciary duty” is the term to Google.

No it's not. I've been in discussions about it here and nobody could cite a law. If one can't cite a specific US code, it's not a legal obligation. It could be in a charter or contract, but it's not US law. Feel free to correct me if you can cite one. I believe this is a good starting point: https://www.congress.gov/advanced-search/legislation Fiduciary duty doesn't apply to most non-finance related companies. It's m…

The reason you can’t find a federal law is that corporations are largely governed by state law.

See, for example, Section 5231 of the California Corporations Code.

https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/corporations-code/corp-sect-523...

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#183
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*good public businesses Private businesses don’t have to do anything and is where you get some of the best companies that exist and care about their customers like Patagonia. https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/gear-news/patagon... Maybe it’s the only way out of the enshittification death spiral because there are no shareholders to destroy the company to “create value” for.

Not that I disagree, but in my experience the enshittification, or at least a lot of prominent examples are often services that never made money and now have to and ... yeah they can't so it goes bad. The whole cycle of "free brings in users (and we users LOVE that) --> users bring in investors --> later you have to make money --> change the service to make money and now nobody is happy" is a whole other issue.

There seem to be two things at play:

1. The current economic situation is causing a lot of investors to tighten screws and demand profitability where they had previously been fine with just seeking growth because it becomes clearer that fewer investors are willing to participate in the next round of hot potato in the hopes of catching a unicorn.

2. Investors generally seek growth and at some point you've hit the physical limits by having caught nearly every customer you can and the only way to drive up those numbers is by upselling to the same people which often means kneecapping user experience to help upselling on the cure (e.g. Amazon Prime Video "channels" as extra subscriptions on top of the Prime Video ad-free subscription on top of the buy/rent for individual movies and shows on top of the Amazon Prime subscription that also includes access to Prime Video itself).

With streaming services specifically there's also the effect where Netflix itself ended up figuring out its niche's business model only to have every IP owning distribution studio try to copy it and become its competition, removing their IP from it (and any additional IP they can get exclusive licenses for) and locking it behind their own subscription model to cut out the middleman even if for the customer this means having to sign up to at least five different platforms if you want to watch every episode of the Pokemon animated series (for some reason). This is obviously enshittification for the customer and would still be so even if the individual streaming services all used the same exact pricing and business model as Netflix did a few years ago (before the price hikes, ads and measures against account sharing) - although it could be described as a monopoly being replaced by a market (which we're normally told should be a good thing).

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with InDesign is that publishing industry is too small. Most people don't know InDesign but its used to produce practically every single print, book, label, poster ever. Yet it is too small for any company to care about to create competition (except Affinity). Funny thing is InDesign by itself already had most of what you need for digital design tool like Figma (and more). At some point (when InDesign sti…

> Yet it is too small for any company to care about to create competition (except Affinity). I'm curious about their business model for this. When the Affinity suite is ~$170 one-off cost, I wonder how many they have to sell each year to keep going and how big the market is. If someone is using this software every day as their main way to make money, that's incredibly cheap as well but could they charge more? People…

The way to do this is clear? If you release new version for 170usd every 18 months it's about 10usd/m subscription - so you are 6times cheaper?.

The funny thing is that i think the pro market doesn't trust them because of the low price. It's possible Affinity found so much friction with pro market which doesn't want to change their processes that they figured out they have to go after the prosumer/hobby market.

But as tools Affinity is not some kind of budget tool. The software is in many ways a lot better and doesn't have baggage ancient Adobe stuff has. The only thing they are missing for pro market is scripting/plugins. I think if they did that this would allow third parties to fill in lots of the functionality they don't have (same what InDesign and After Effects does). That could really really start to bite. The way i see it Affinity is one major update away from starting to eat away masses of Adobe customers. Everybody has been pissed at Adobe for years and once few bigger names start to do it because of costs it will fuel the confidence of everyone.

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people tend to not accept this plain fact that for-profits must maximize profit. It's literally illegal not to do so. https://www.wakeforestlawreview.com/2012/04/our-continuing-s...

For-profits must act in the shareholders' best interests. Shareholders want profit, but they also care about other things. Matt Levine has been banging this drum of late in his column. To paraphrase: Shareholders are people who breathe air. A car company could oppose particulate emissions regulations to maximize profits for shareholders. But if they supported regulations instead, this is equally justifiable to any co…

If there's a single shareholder that wants profit instead of clean air from their share, they have grounds to sue (and win). LLCs aren't dictatorships of the majority, and definitely not of the CEO.

If every single shareholder agrees, then yes.

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#186

Now Figma can become the de-facto choice for its software category and a merger was proved to be ultimately unnecessary for its survival and was a clear attempt at Adobe trying to buyout their competition because they can't seem to compete. I think overall this is a good thing. Adobe owning Figma isn't a great promise that it would be make Figma better, improve Figma in any way, nor keep Figma on the path of making h…

> did Figma even need to sell in the first place? In order to not bankrupt? No. In order to maximize discounted cash flow? Maybe. Define your objective, get your answer.

You’re saying the same thing in a different way. Any reason for selling would be a reason.

I suspect there is no strongly compelling reason for it other than it was a big offer they couldn’t refuse

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet it is too small for any company to care about to create competition (except Affinity). I'm curious about their business model for this. When the Affinity suite is ~$170 one-off cost, I wonder how many they have to sell each year to keep going and how big the market is. If someone is using this software every day as their main way to make money, that's incredibly cheap as well but could they charge more? People…

The way to do this is clear? If you release new version for 170usd every 18 months it's about 10usd/m subscription - so you are 6times cheaper?. The funny thing is that i think the pro market doesn't trust them because of the low price. It's possible Affinity found so much friction with pro market which doesn't want to change their processes that they figured out they have to go after the prosumer/hobby market. But a…

> If you release new version for 170usd every 18 months it's about 10usd/m subscription - so you are 6times cheaper?.

This would put them under immense pressure to come up with new features (useful or not) to get people to upgrade. At some point for certain users, the current version is going to cover 90% of what they need and they won't see the point in upgrading.

I didn't look into it much, but Sketch moved from a one-off payment for the current version plus 1 year of updates, to subscription-based charging. I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason was most didn't need the latest features.

Aside from this, has any software ever done something like "$170 upfront, or $20/month for 12 months only, then you own this major version"? I'm aware of Adobe's approach where if you cancel the monthly plan they'll surprisingly charge you the rest of the payments to make up 12 months, but you don't own anything after.

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#188
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adobe has a record of acquiring products and then killing them. Fireworks & Freehand for example.

They also kill good internal products because of infighting. ImageReady was nixed by the Photoshop guys.

ImageReady’s tooling (slicing, 2-Up/4-Up Save-for-Web, GIF frame editing, etc) was incorporated directly into Photoshop. It wasn’t “nixed”.

Re: Adobe gives up on web-design product to rival Figma after deal collapse

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way to do this is clear? If you release new version for 170usd every 18 months it's about 10usd/m subscription - so you are 6times cheaper?. The funny thing is that i think the pro market doesn't trust them because of the low price. It's possible Affinity found so much friction with pro market which doesn't want to change their processes that they figured out they have to go after the prosumer/hobby market. But a…

> If you release new version for 170usd every 18 months it's about 10usd/m subscription - so you are 6times cheaper?. This would put them under immense pressure to come up with new features (useful or not) to get people to upgrade. At some point for certain users, the current version is going to cover 90% of what they need and they won't see the point in upgrading. I didn't look into it much, but Sketch moved from a…

Sketch still has 120usd desktop version. Their solution was to add server/collaboration element that is subscription based.

> This would put them under immense pressure to come up with new features (useful or not) to get people to upgrade. At some point for certain users, the current version is going to cover 90% of what they need and they won't see the point in upgrading.

Isn't this backwards? If you don't have anything to add to the software why should you charge for it? The thing with Adobe there is no shortage of enhancements/features people wanted. It's not lack of imagination. Adobe just realized they don't need to do much so why would you pay programmers if you have no competition and very little churn? Especially since what everyone wanted was stability, bugfixes, performance and hard stuff like versioning systems. How are you going to market that your software crashes 20% less?

Also if anything software/hardware compatibility is always going to be reason for upgrading.

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