Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd argue that it's not so much a difference of opinion than it is just a reasoning error given the question as stated. That's sort of the whole point of this post-- this is a case where "doing the math" in the expected way gives the wrong answer, because the state of the system is cast in stone (in terms of the ratio of red/green balls in the urn) when you first start out, so it's all about leveraging the informatio…
You don't need to think in terms of information to get the right answer, you just need to be careful of the setup. You can easily apply frequentist probability reasoning and still get the right answer. You have to start from P(n > 50 | first pull is a red ball), and compute P(second ball red | first ball red) based on that. Basically the mistake is computing the frequency over 100 balls, instead of computing it over…
A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
121–130 of 169 posts
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#122Answer is impossible to know without knowing n. If there are n=0 red balls probability of having a red ball is 0%. If n=100 red balls is 100% If the idea is to repeat the experiment until reaching a limit the probability of choosing each number must be taken in account and included, and then we could take an average of all possible results.
You just now need to simulate drawing two balls without replacement for each of your 101 urns (from first urn with n=0 to last urn with n=100).
Then you take the conditional probability of seeing the first ball as red, and calculating the number of times you see the next ball as red.
You will find that you are more likely to get red than green.
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#123Imagine you have to guess a random number between 0 and 255, i.e. you have to guess 8 bits. You already know that it's less than 128 so the most significant bit is 0. Can you derive any knowledge about whether the second bit is 0 or 1?
Watch out. Because your bits are indexed you have a different problem than before. The first red ball does not give you a significant bit. Instead: Make a sample and now you know that it is greater than a random number unknown to you. Can you derive any knowledge about your next sample?
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#124Hm I'm not sure if it's correct but here's my logic (here on mastodon https://social.ciaranmc.com/@ciaran/111850662374227629 ) There are N-1 red balls out of 99 remaining, so the probability the next ball is red is (N-1/99). The possible values of N are evenly distributed [1...100] (we discount the N=0 case because we drew a red ball) The total probability that the next ball is red is the sum of the individual probab…
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#125Not a unique explanation, but thinking about it like this might make it easier to understand the right answer and the wrong answer that was initially intuitive to me. Imagine calculating the odds by choosing the first ball from every permutation of red and green balls. And then do the same by choosing a random ball from each permutation. The odds of getting red on the first pick in either case is 50% - but it's not t…
Let's simplify and look at three balls, whose possible permutations are
1. rrr 2. rrg 3. rgr 4. rgg 5. grr 6. grg 7. ggr 8. ggg
There are two approaches that are intuitive and wrong, and then the right approach. Specifically it depends which question you're answering.
1. What are the odds when picking two random balls over and over from the same permutation.
- You might assume the odds of each ball are completely independent, making the odds of a first red n/100, and then a second red slightly lower at n-1/99. This is what happens when you pick two random balls over and over from the same permutation.
2. What are the odds when picking the first and second balls from a random permutation. - You might assume that if you've selected a red ball first you must be in permutations 1-4, making the odds of a second red ball 50% (permutations 1-2). This is what happens when choosing the first (and second) ball in order from a random permutation.
3. What are the odds when picking a random ball from a random permutation. - This is what we're actually being asked to do.
- In this case the odds of picking red first are proportional to the number of reds in the permutation. Specifically, picking red is guaranteed when in permutation 1, and 67% likely when in permutations 2,3, and 5, but only 33% likely when in scenarios 4, 6, and 7, and impossible in scenario 8. While it is equally likely to be in permutations 4 or 5, unlike scenario 2, you're more likely to choose a red ball when in 5 than 4, and in general, you're more likely to pick a red ball first when in a permutation that has more red balls to choose from. And because it does, the second draw is more likely to be red as well.
- Like in the Monty Hall problem, the color of the first ball is, while random, unintuitively not arbitrary, but rather an indication that there are more balls of that color to choose from in the urn, which gives you an advantage in knowing what the second draw will be.Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#126Answer is impossible to know without knowing n. If there are n=0 red balls probability of having a red ball is 0%. If n=100 red balls is 100% If the idea is to repeat the experiment until reaching a limit the probability of choosing each number must be taken in account and included, and then we could take an average of all possible results.
There are 9900 possibilities for the state of the urn after the first ball is picked: 1. n = 1, you can pick any of 99 green balls 2. n = 2, you can pick any of 98 green balls and a red ball 3. ... 100. n = 100, you can pick any of 99 remaining red balls If you count the situations in which you will pick a red ball next, you'll see that there are more than the ones where the next ball is green. Intuitively, given tha…
This is what a math person would say, I had seen it many times in science, but is not the correct answer. The correct answer would be: "my sample is too small to carry so much information as I'm claiming that it has".
Intuitively If I walk on the street and I see a woman, I can't say anything about the proportion of men and women in the area, absolutely nothing, except: "number of women > 0". This is my result. Is dull and not publishable but also the only that I can infer about the population, because is under-sampled.
If the experiment is to take a ball from a bag, see its color and think that I can calculate the number of red balls with only this info, my goals are not realistic
I need to keep sampling. (not repeating, sampling the same population, doing ten times an experiment that provide tiny amounts of info will not generate new info about the first population from the air. The populations are independent). You need to improve the size of your sample over the same population.
Lots of the early ecology models that are flawless from a math point were basically useless when applied to the real life exactly for this.
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are 9900 possibilities for the state of the urn after the first ball is picked: 1. n = 1, you can pick any of 99 green balls 2. n = 2, you can pick any of 98 green balls and a red ball 3. ... 100. n = 100, you can pick any of 99 remaining red balls If you count the situations in which you will pick a red ball next, you'll see that there are more than the ones where the next ball is green. Intuitively, given tha…
> Intuitively, given that you picked a red ball, you should expect there to be more red balls in the urn. This is what a math person would say, I had seen it many times in science, but is not the correct answer. The correct answer would be: "my sample is too small to carry so much information as I'm claiming that it has". Intuitively If I walk on the street and I see a woman, I can't say anything about the proportion…
That is, statistics also tells us that P(n>50 | first ball is red) ~= P(n>50) ~= P(nOf course, the problem statement is not realistic in the slightest because it gives you too much other (critical) information as well: you are told that n has a uniform probability distribution. In reality, you never know the probability distribution a priori (even when analyzing a die or coin, you can't be a priori certain it is fair). And the conclusion in this problem, even weak as it is, depends critically on knowing the probability distribution. Not only would the conclusion be different is n was not uniformly distributed between 1 and 100, but you can't even do a similar analysis over all possible probability distributions.
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
Another way of making your point: it would also make the information about the distribution of n irrelevant, so it's a bad interpretation of the question.
So? There's plenty of problem statements with irrelevant data. Children are also getting taught to determine which is relevant in class. But also, it's not irrelevant because for two cases the probability stays equal. Calculating the exact chance is still an interesting problem and it could have been dumbed down for twitter only.
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#129I think this is easiest to see if you imagine the urn is filled with three balls. You draw one, and it's red. The possibilities are that the urn originally contained: 1. Red, Red, Red 2. Red, Red, Green 3. Red, Green, Green (The Green, Green, Green case is impossible because you drew one Red.) Drawing a Red from urn configuration (1) was a 100% probability; from (2) was a 66% probability, and from (3) was a 33% proba…
Re: A confusing probability question: Red and green balls in an urn
#130I think this is easiest to see if you imagine the urn is filled with three balls. You draw one, and it's red. The possibilities are that the urn originally contained: 1. Red, Red, Red 2. Red, Red, Green 3. Red, Green, Green (The Green, Green, Green case is impossible because you drew one Red.) Drawing a Red from urn configuration (1) was a 100% probability; from (2) was a 66% probability, and from (3) was a 33% proba…
Why are we excluding red, green, red?