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Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

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Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#261

Post by kulahan »

As of a few years ago, all parking lot sizes were effectively guesstimates, at least for a not-insignificant number of companies. iirc, the problem

Donald Shoup is an economist with a seemingly infinite hatred for our massive waste of parking. Cool ideas for how to fix it (e.g. metered parking that goes up as parking goes down, money goes to the neighborhood that's being metered directly) and he helps drive home how insane the entire thing is.

He's got some old lectures and interviews on youtube that can be pretty damn interesting, for a video of an economist talking about parking lots...

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#262

Post by shiroiuma »

wirrbel wrote: post #45
underlipton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. America has over-invested in cars and car infrastructure, to the detriment of many other more deserving investments. We're upside down on our priorities when it costs a few bucks to park on land worth a few million dollars and when skilled laborers are living off of insurance payouts to fix superficial dings and dents (instead of, say, fixing failing bridges).

That investment was done to a degree that upkeep is to expensive nowadays.

Sounds more like a white elephant than an investment. Investments are supposed to yield returns much greater than the initial cost, not cost you a fortune in continuing maintenance.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#263

Post by sph »

jiggliemon wrote: post #130

I live on the border of an urban forest. I’ve come to realize that urban forests double as homeless camps. My homeless camp has is rife with crime, drug over doses, violence and fire. Last month I’ve had a leaf blower stolen, my car window broken, and an explosion due to them throwing a propane tank into a camp fire. Since they’re tucked into a forest - the city won’t take any action. The city does take action on hom…

If you have homelessness problems, it is not because of urban forests, and the solution is not having as few forests and parks as possible.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#264

Post by JoshTriplett »

bsder wrote: post #193
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My jaw hit the floor when I learned that some cities actually apply parking minimums to redevelopment of downtown properties and not just stuff like new surburban strip malls, to the point that some projects have bought adjacent buildings and demolished them in favor of parking lots. Maybe it's true that the r/fuckcars crowd likes to throw the term "carbrain" around a little too freely, but this kind of ass-backward…

It's not always ass-backward. People forget that one of the reasons why the malls became so popular and helped collapse the old downtowns was, you guessed it, lack of free parking . With malls, you could come into a boundary and spend a significant amount of time in a walkable arena with lots of different stores. You knew there would always be parking except possibly at Christmas. Downtown? Not so much. And you proba…

> Which seemingly, would have prevented the malls from collapsing.

I don't think nearby residence areas would have prevented malls from collapsing.

Online shopping made them largely obsolete as a place to actually shop, with many going bankrupt and others hanging on by a thread. Then a global pandemic cut some of the remaining threads.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#265

Post by al_borland »

wtp1saac wrote: post #4

Strong Towns has called a good amount of attention to the mandatory parking requirements in many cities (and shockingly, many downtowns). Thankfully, it seems a fair number of cities are removing such restrictions, but hopefully it becomes more widespread. In general I hope the US can urbanize, the older I get the more I realize it’s not really enjoyable living in this country. I don’t think I want hyper dense, but h…

Parking lot requirements make sense in areas where cars are the only viable means of transportation. Removing those requirements only makes sense when other forms of transportation are provided to reduce the number of cars required to get people to the places of business.

Near me, the city is talking about removing a big parking lot and strip mall and turning it into a mixed use space, but as far as I’ve read there has been no talk of transportation. The area sits at the intersection of two stroads. It’s technically walkable, but it’s not a pleasant walk. It’s technically can be biked, but not without competing with cars for space on the road. There might be buses, but they are very infrequent and slow. Everyone I know would want to drive, as the alternatives are significantly worse than driving. If people can’t park, they simply won’t go.

I’d love to get rid of my car, but that requires the city, and region, make significant investments in public transit infrastructure. The non-car option can’t just be available for those who are willing to put in a lot of effort to avoid using a car. The non-car options need to be better than the car option. Easier, cheaper, safer, and more pleasant.

Removing parking lots makes driving worse, but doesn’t make the alternatives better.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#266

Post by JoshTriplett »

imgabe wrote: post #237
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't want to go to store every two days, and the prices in local small stores are higher than in a larger, discount store. I buy a pack of milk, and I'm good for a month.

I guess you're getting shelf stable milk instead of fresh milk? Milk is not supposed to last for a month.

Isn't modern technology grand? See also pasteurization, canning, pickling, and many many other technologies that help food last longer. Why should people care what something is "supposed to" do? Many kinds of food are "supposed to" spoil quickly, but we've gone to great lengths to overcome that.

(For clarity in case there is a nomenclature difference here, UHT milk is shelf-stable liquid milk that's entirely equivalent to any milk but lasts much longer before expiring. That's separate from things like evaporated milk or powdered milk, which are also substitutes for milk but not directly equivalent.)

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#267

Post by JoshTriplett »

PeterisP wrote: post #245
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't want to go to store every two days, and the prices in local small stores are higher than in a larger, discount store. I buy a pack of milk, and I'm good for a month.

In a walkable city you go by a store every time you go outside - you come back from work, you pass by a store or two where you can buy fresh groceries. This has also an impact on healthy diet, giving access to fresh goods which wouldn't possibly last a month and thus wouldn't get eaten if people drive shopping every few weeks.

> In a walkable city you go by a store every time you go outside

I'm all for designing for walkability, but this is a case study in failing to understand audiences. If you make this not just a possibility but a requirement of walkable cities, many people won't want to live in your "walkable" cities at all.

There are much better arguments possible here. For instance, you could promote CSAs for regularly delivered farm-fresh produce, or establish efficient grocery delivery services that use one vehicle to deliver to many many customers, or other potential options that don't involve regular car trips for grocery shopping and don't involve spending an appreciable fraction of your day shopping.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#268

Post by JoshTriplett »

jamil7 wrote: post #61
verve_rat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A car centric life is not sustainable for the planet. How so? If we waved a magic wand and all cars became EVs powered by renewable energy, what would be unsustainable?

The fact that they’re still vastly less efficient than mass public transport, bikes or just walking.

I'd love to see public transit that can go from arbitrary-point to arbitrary-point door to door in the same amount of time as a hailed EV could. I genuinely really would. I've never seen a proposal for such a system, only proposals that are less time-efficient than that.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#269

Post by cirrrrrrus »

djrobstep wrote: post #185
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shopping centers are a bad example for this, because if you buy stuff, you somehow have to take it home, and carrying a carton of 12 liters of milk, 2 10-packs of toilet paper, a bag of frozen stuff and shower curtain rod, all of that in your hands on a bus, is well.. a pain. Also, at least over here, most shopping centers have underground parking. The "historic city center" and all that crap... that I understand...…

I get most of my grocery shopping delivered, or I go to the supermarket in my cargo bike, dump it all in the front, and ride home. You really don't need a car for this stuff at all.

I also have a cargo bike I use to get all sorts of things - from a full shopping cart to a large IKEA haul. Kids go in the trailer while the groceries are loaded in the cargo bike.

I live in Parisian suburbs and stores are all less than 10km away, I have never had trouble getting anything.

If I need something larger / heavier (say, cinder blocks and cement) I just rent a truck for two hours and get all the heavy shopping done in the time frame.

Re: Tear up unused parking lots, plant trees

#270

Post by sgu999 »

kelnos wrote: post #164
wtp1saac wrote: post #4

Strong Towns has called a good amount of attention to the mandatory parking requirements in many cities (and shockingly, many downtowns). Thankfully, it seems a fair number of cities are removing such restrictions, but hopefully it becomes more widespread. In general I hope the US can urbanize, the older I get the more I realize it’s not really enjoyable living in this country. I don’t think I want hyper dense, but h…

I'm so torn as to what I want my future living situation to be. I grew up in the suburbs of New Jersey and Maryland, spent a little time in my 20s in the denser-than-suburbs suburbia of the Bay Area, and then the past 14 years in San Francisco proper. More recently I've been spending 1-1.5 months at a time living out in "rural" parts of Truckee, CA. I just don't know anymore. In San Francisco I live within a few minu…

This is what bothers me the most with the car-centric mindset so many people have. You have to choose in-between being car free in a very dense area or car dependent in a rural area. In reality small towns can be just compact enough to allow many small businesses to thrive, as it's the case in other developed countries. Malls are the main source of problems...
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