How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#171

Post by wbl » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #132

KieranMac wrote: post #69

As an attorney who has experience responding to Meta’s “anti-scraping team,” I think there might be more opportunities for amicable resolutions than you might expect (depending on the specifics of what you’re doing, of course). Meta is not oblivious to the fact that they’re under significant social and regulatory scrutiny. They sometimes play nice if you’re willing to accommodate certain considerations. Either way, m…

Is there existing case law around browser extensions that only alter the presentation of a web page on the client machine? You know, things like adblockers or extensions that alter a specific site?

It's called a user agent for a reason: it works on behalf of the user.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#172

Post by bombcar » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 1:17 AM UTC

feoren wrote: post #149

phasetransition wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the (non lawyer) who fell into managing all US legal firm interactions for my day job, I support this list. If you are comfortable with legal documents; have a law dictionary to understand what specific language means; and read historical case law on the topic in question, you will be well prepared to have a seat at the table with your attorneys.

> read historical case law on the topic in question Is this even at all accessible to anyone who isn't already in a major law firm? I'm assuming it requires some sort of thousand-dollar subscription to an exploitative publishing house?

You just need a law library nearby. Most moderate-sized cities have them.

If not, call the city or county clerk and ask, they often have access at the courthouse to PACER and friends.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#173

Post by hughesjj » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 1:30 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #164

KieranMac wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certain tasks that you would never do yourself, such as surgery. And there are certain tasks like changing your oil where anyone with patience and diligence can do it themselves. It's just a question of whether you want to spend the time to learn it and do it. Responding to a C&D letter from a Fortune 50 company, I would posit, is more like performing surgery than changing your oil. The cost of being wrong…

The weird bit is when doing it yourself turns out to be more of a hassle and more expensive than paying someone else to do it. Around 15 years ago I decided to learn how to change my own oil. Even after excluding the fixed costs (I bought little ramp things to drive the front of the car up on while I worked underneath, and a container to drain the old oil into), I was surprised at the per-change costs: the cost of th…

Feel ya. Disposal is a pain, and if you mess up, it's a trip to home Depot to get some chemicals to clean your asphalt. That was fun when my apartment had me parking in a shared garage...

Oil is simple and easy enough that I just get it changed with my inspections. There are things that, even if you're competent enough to monitor and do yourself, is still better getting a second pair of eyes on. That said I wouldn't do jiffy lube or other stop and go oil shops... Too many noobs there where the chance of them effing it up is higher than myself. I once had a tire buldge when I was younger and broke AF, they replaced the wrong tire and I had to drive back to convince them they changed the wrong one (big old bubble in the sidewall), took a bit to convince them they changed the wrong one since they refused to admit fault. Thank God I took a picture before that was clear enough to place the bulb right on the text in the exact same spot.

I'm having similar concerns around my diy for some electrical and gas work. Yeah technically I can do it myself to code, but I'd rather inspect someone else's work and not deal with the liability of fucking it up myself. Just because I can do it doesn't mean I can do it to the level of a quality professional, and I'm now wealthy enough to actually get the pros and not just the journeymen. There's something about paying for quality work that just feels good. So long as you can respect the labor, it feels great and not so weird to hire others.

That said, I've had a few coding projects I've subcontracted in my home due to lack of time to those on roughly equal grounds as myself. It feels a bit weird, especially for tasks with unknown bounds but worth it for the time and schedule savings. I'd rather not wait another 6 months and spend my personal time when I have a laid off friend who just wants some bar cash.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#174

Post by ncallaway » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

KieranMac wrote: post #152

ncallaway wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need. Attorneys know attorneys. I’d still recommend starting with your network, then asking those attorneys who they would recommend for the services you need. Or ask them if they know anyone that might be able to re…

There are probably two dozen specialists on this issue nationwide. A properly targeted Google search will outperform your personal network of attorneys (and their network of attorneys) 99.9% of the time.

Your assertion is that there are I’m sorry, that just doesn’t sound at all credible to me.

It almost cannot be accurate by definition. There is no legal service that a hobbyist could _ever_ afford if there are <= 24 qualified specialists in the United States.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#175

Post by Guthur » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 2:06 AM UTC

mike_hock wrote: post #166

dpedu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what were you able to determine from that I interpret this as: a company that is successful not because it provides a service that is useful or good, but one that other companies - in this case "financial firms" - are FORCED to buy, usually through compliance or regulatory means. Think of it like an auto insurance company advertising themselves as "your trusted partner on the roads." Yeah I guess, but it's still me…

So yes, like the mafia.

I increasingly see less distinction between the various forms of economic rent and organised crime.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#176

Post by Aeolun » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 2:53 AM UTC

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #151

hodgesrm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a bad reason not to consult with a lawyer. Hire a good one who knows the business you are in.

And how exactly is a normal person going to evaluate which lawyer is a "good one" and which is not?

If they say ‘it depends’ they are a bad one?

Of course, you’d have to not pay them for pointless advice, or it gets expensive very quickly.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#177

Post by codazoda » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 2:58 AM UTC

I once received a cease-and-desist from my employer, who was a big tech company!

I had written a small shareware app called JazAwake. It was designed to stop the Iomega Jaz drive from spinning down every two minutes or so.

They did not know who I was but the stakes were instantly very high. If they filed a suit, they would uncover my identity, realize I worked for them, and terminate my employment.

To make matters worse, I was relatively sure the demands were impossible to meet. They requested I stop distributing the program AND remove all traces of it from the internet.

Similar to the linked article, I spent 9-months responding to demand letters. To my own surprise, I was eventually successful in removing it from the internet. I had to send my own demand letters (which were nicer) to every website owner who mentioned or linked to a copy of the app.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#178

Post by trogdor » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 3:09 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #106

rendaw wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, since you failed to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" thing, I'm going to ask: how much would it reasonably cost to hire an attorney for advice on this? Assuming the contacting lawyer is on shaky ground. No "it depends" please, a ballpark. Maybe it's cheaper to have one on retainer. How much per month, if like a normal citizen your only daily legal risks are random megacorporations threatening you? Should eve…

My attorney charges me about $200/hr. Most things I talk to him about require less than an hour of billable time. Also, I've been working with him for so long (including on a few nontrivial things like selling companies) that he often doesn't charge me at all for trivial things.

That is well-below current market rates in decent-size cities.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#179

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 3:36 AM UTC

codazoda wrote: post #177

I once received a cease-and-desist from my employer, who was a big tech company! I had written a small shareware app called JazAwake. It was designed to stop the Iomega Jaz drive from spinning down every two minutes or so. They did not know who I was but the stakes were instantly very high. If they filed a suit, they would uncover my identity, realize I worked for them, and terminate my employment. To make matters wo…

Why did your employer have a problem with your small shareware app though? I don't see why anyone could possibly get fired over something like a drive utility.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#180

Post by chii » Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 3:45 AM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #102

phasetransition wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most smaller firms will require a retainer. $5k is fairly common. I've been able to work with several large firms for work, and several smaller firms for personal stuff. Personally, I much prefer the larger firms. In general their work product, responsiveness, and timeliness is well ahead of small firms. They aren't even that much more expensive for some things. Unfortunately I don't know what the retainer $$ would b…

Sigh. 5k is three months rent for many people. It's not surprising that we don't see more bootstrapped startups from underprivileged people.

> bootstrapped startups from underprivileged people.

i dont think startups should be paying a retainer. You do this only after it's worth the money - ala, you either know your domain is a gray area and is definitely going to require a lawyer.

This has nothing to do with underprivileged people or not.