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Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

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Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#41

Post by davidw »

DanI-S wrote: post #12

Here's something oft-understated: As a web developer, you sit on the intersection of engineering, design and art. You're lucky enough to live at a time where there are numerous production-ready tools with which to do your job. If you choose a tool that you're excited to explore, with an active and fast-moving ecosystem, your excitement and enthusiasm will make you happier and more likely to do a better job. Someone d…

> Don't underestimate the value of enthusiasm - especially if you're a boss.

With the flip side of that being ....? Hurry up and build it in whatever's new and cool before their enthusiasm for it fades and everyone's on to the next next thing?

I too, as a hacker, like to experiment with new stuff, and find that it's motivating, but thinking about how to manage a project for the long term is also worth considering.

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#42

Post by edwinnathaniel »

tzaman wrote: post #37
neovive wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent points!! Always keep an eye open towards the advantages and disadvantages of anything new. Don't immediately dismiss something because it is new, just as you wouldn't immediately start using something new. Research and learn.

It's not a black/white situation here. Being the boss, I know sometimes (most of the time, to be honest) we need to stick to proven and tested stuff, as economic times are not the prettiest and clients that would pay for the extra mile don't just sit around. What happens when you assign 2 developers on a project that they are very passionate and enthusiastic about because you allowed them to use, say, node.js. Only t…

It's a typical developer vs business mindset. They rarely sit on the same page for a good reason.

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#43

Post by spyder »

tzaman wrote: post #33
tferris wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree. I understand that you can get quickly the feeling that you have to do a lot of stuff manually with node because node packages (gems in node) are more kind of atomic and not full-blown like rails. You can quickly setup a rails-like-environment with node packages. There are different web frameworks which are a refreshing take compared to rails and provide same or better functionality. ORMs like Acti…

Prove it: What is node equivalent of: "rails g resource User email:string password:string"? AFAIK there is none. At least not one that would take care of migrations, validation, security, logic and views. And if I want to use postgres? Sure, there's a npm package. But it's for queries, I still need to define models and validation manually. ....

http://railwayjs.com/ http://towerjs.org/

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#45

Post by tensor »

DanI-S wrote: post #12

Here's something oft-understated: As a web developer, you sit on the intersection of engineering, design and art. You're lucky enough to live at a time where there are numerous production-ready tools with which to do your job. If you choose a tool that you're excited to explore, with an active and fast-moving ecosystem, your excitement and enthusiasm will make you happier and more likely to do a better job. Someone d…

As as boss, I understand that happy employees are a good thing for everyone, but similarly it is not enough to convince me to use what I see as a seriously substandard solution.

From my point of view, Node.js is shaping up to be the php of 2012. It's proponents claim it's easy and fun and it's in a language that they are comfortable with. Meanwhile it's detractors see no real advantage over existing or other upcoming languages. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming it's quite as bad as php as that's something very hard to achieve, but equally I feel there are much better solutions.

I'm not at all against new languages, but I'd sooner invest in a new language that brings something more serious to the table. Perhaps the language is more concise so that we can write less code. Perhaps it's really clean with high performance and a steller C FFI. Maybe it leverages exiting mature eco-systems of software such as the .Net or JVM stack. Do you not find Scala, Python, or Clojure fun? I would hope you do!

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#46

Post by romaniv »

DanI-S wrote: post #12

Here's something oft-understated: As a web developer, you sit on the intersection of engineering, design and art. You're lucky enough to live at a time where there are numerous production-ready tools with which to do your job. If you choose a tool that you're excited to explore, with an active and fast-moving ecosystem, your excitement and enthusiasm will make you happier and more likely to do a better job. Someone d…

ASP.NET core it not terribly well-designed, but it has has peripheral things like Razor, design-by-contract, PEX, Moles and there are tons of other interesting technologies from MS research. A lot of those things are genuinely new in some way, and allow you to do something that was completely impossible before.

I can't muster any enthusiasm over Node, because it's really more-of-the-same-but-better. With an attitude like this it's perfectly reasonable to ask "why exactly it's better"? Unsubstantiated enthusiasm in IT is evil.

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#47

Post by tferris »

tzaman wrote: post #33
tferris wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree. I understand that you can get quickly the feeling that you have to do a lot of stuff manually with node because node packages (gems in node) are more kind of atomic and not full-blown like rails. You can quickly setup a rails-like-environment with node packages. There are different web frameworks which are a refreshing take compared to rails and provide same or better functionality. ORMs like Acti…

Prove it: What is node equivalent of: "rails g resource User email:string password:string"? AFAIK there is none. At least not one that would take care of migrations, validation, security, logic and views. And if I want to use postgres? Sure, there's a npm package. But it's for queries, I still need to define models and validation manually. ....

as spyder posted there are npms providing this functionality. there are 8,000 packages for all your needs.

But the point is another: the npm world is much more modular than the Rails mononblock, there is much less magic involved. You setup your own stack which is simpler than setting up Rails, rvm, gems. Rails isn't bad—it's great but getting off track or looking behind the magic can get a tedious task ...

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#48

Post by javajosh »

DanI-S wrote: post #12

Here's something oft-understated: As a web developer, you sit on the intersection of engineering, design and art. You're lucky enough to live at a time where there are numerous production-ready tools with which to do your job. If you choose a tool that you're excited to explore, with an active and fast-moving ecosystem, your excitement and enthusiasm will make you happier and more likely to do a better job. Someone d…

"Excitement and enthusiasm for something new" was left off that list for a very good reason: it's a terrible reason to pick a technology like node (or anything else).

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that enthusiasm for mere new-ness is one of the more pernicious, counter-productive parts of modern hacker culture. Rich Hickey implied this at his RailsConf keynote when he talked about how great we are at judging benefits, but terrible at judging trade-offs. Here's a man who's certainly not afraid of newness itself (I mean, he single-handedly released a new JVM hosted LISP) but I think he has his head in the right place about the cost of new, and what something must provide to justify that cost.

For example, it makes absolutely no sense to use Node and then layer on top of it a web framework that is an isomorphism from some other environment.

Last but not least, I think the key reason we have different perspectives is age. Hickey and I are about the same age. I assert that anyone who trumpets the inherent value of "new" hasn't been around long enough to understand that there is a never-ending stream of new things and that, as Teddy Sturgeon famously quipped, 90% of everything is crap.

The real market for technology adoption should fueled by demand for simplicity, rather than demand new-ness (something else Hickey strongly implied in his talk).

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#49

Post by tferris »

DanI-S wrote: post #12

Here's something oft-understated: As a web developer, you sit on the intersection of engineering, design and art. You're lucky enough to live at a time where there are numerous production-ready tools with which to do your job. If you choose a tool that you're excited to explore, with an active and fast-moving ecosystem, your excitement and enthusiasm will make you happier and more likely to do a better job. Someone d…

After reading all the posts in this thread I found another thing that is fascinating with node:

The community

It feels like Rails in its beginning—so many talented folks providing great solutions. Just check Express and related npms like Jade, Stylus, etc. They look like similar Ruby gems but if you look into the details you see people that go further and pushes the boundaries.

Some examples: just check how beautiful designed the Express error messages are—nothing crucial but it feels good working with people who are passionate. Or check how lean Stylus is compared to SASS, LESS, SCSS or how Jade goes beyond HAML with mixins etc.

It's hard for me to articulate this enthusiasm I have with node but as much as I appreciate the Rails world I don't feel passionate with Rails anymore (it feels like my Cobol class in university).

Re: Node.js - Convincing the boss guide

#50

Post by DanI-S »

javajosh wrote: post #48
DanI-S wrote: post #12

Here's something oft-understated: As a web developer, you sit on the intersection of engineering, design and art. You're lucky enough to live at a time where there are numerous production-ready tools with which to do your job. If you choose a tool that you're excited to explore, with an active and fast-moving ecosystem, your excitement and enthusiasm will make you happier and more likely to do a better job. Someone d…

"Excitement and enthusiasm for something new " was left off that list for a very good reason: it's a terrible reason to pick a technology like node (or anything else). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that enthusiasm for mere new-ness is one of the more pernicious, counter-productive parts of modern hacker culture. Rich Hickey implied this at his RailsConf keynote when he talked about how great we are at judging bene…

I carefully avoided making the statement you've just deconstructed. Nothing in my original post mentions newness.

The point I made is that enthusiastic and excited developers are valuable. Developers tend to find learning exciting. They could be interested in learning Rails or Django for the first time, trying out Sinatra when a full Rails app seems overkill, or exploring Node for a small and non-critical part of your architecture. Hell, they might be excited about learning PHP.

Allowing people to explore their curiosity brings material benefits. It doesn't have to involve new technology, and I didn't suggest that it does.

As an aside:

> The real market for technology adoption should fueled by demand for simplicity, rather than demand new-ness

I think part of node's mass appeal is that it has introduced an element of simplicity to a generation of developers who have grown up around bloat.

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