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How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

adaobi.substack.com

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Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#41

Post by iSnow »

gniv wrote: post #31

If you want to do big things, there is something else: borrow one or more smart persons. I was once part of an infrastructure project that I (and others on it) simply didn't know how to advance. At some point a few really smart folks got into a room and thought hard about it, and wrote a detailed roadmap. It was still hard to implement, but doable by us mortals. Sometimes you just have to admit defeat and ask for hel…

Asking for help is completely underrated in a professional context, I feel. Too many attach their self-esteem to never asking.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#42

Post by SwiftyBug »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #13
e2021 wrote: post #7

This is good advice, but I think it is for people who think they are not smart, but are actually just inexperienced. I feel like someone who was actually not smart would have trouble executing on these steps

A group I've encountered that this could help are those without tenacity. I have smart friends who are hugely into tech who somehow remained unemployable even during the boom times in that industry. I try and try to push them towards opportunities but they argue 'I just have no natural talent for that' and stop before they even get started. Eg. they tried programming for 3 days, still hadn't fully groked it (because…

> The mere suggestion that you can't possibly do something should fill you with burning determination

I have not once felt that. I guess people just approach challenges differently.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#43

Post by iSnow »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #13
e2021 wrote: post #7

This is good advice, but I think it is for people who think they are not smart, but are actually just inexperienced. I feel like someone who was actually not smart would have trouble executing on these steps

A group I've encountered that this could help are those without tenacity. I have smart friends who are hugely into tech who somehow remained unemployable even during the boom times in that industry. I try and try to push them towards opportunities but they argue 'I just have no natural talent for that' and stop before they even get started. Eg. they tried programming for 3 days, still hadn't fully groked it (because…

>The mere suggestion that you can't possibly do something should fill you with burning determination and it's a positive emotion to feel in that scenario but they seem to just roll over.

Literally everyone with a somewhat weak self-esteem will shy away. Those friends of yours should maybe start programming as a hobby, for a small, defined project that scratches one of their itches, and then go from there.

I am structured like that and that's how I got into a well-paying job in software development.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#44

Post by iSnow »

devnonymous wrote: post #39

Great head fake of an article! These are exactly the things that make smart people smart!

Right? There's a lot in that for actually average to smart people who just struggle with the daily grind.

e.g. making sure you reduce friction for the team (they give some example with antibody prep time, but it could also be build pipelines, or onboarding docs) is something a lead developer should have in mind and either do herself or create a ticket so it gets done.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#45

Post by jraph »

iSnow wrote: post #38
chii wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) lack of effort or (2) lack of organization. (3) lack of reward I say the former 2 is caused by 3. Why would anyone put in over-time to solve a problem, if they dont know how well they'd get rewarded by it? It's why small/founder owned startups get more done with less, because they know themselves how much reward they'd get when putting in the hard yards.

Small groups of like-minded people (from the same cultural and social background) move faster because they have less friction and a shared mission statement. That is something that translates badly to bigger groups, no matter the reward. Us tech guys already get rewarded with great working conditions and good pay.

> already get rewarded with great working conditions and good pay

In addition to those, having clues that my work is appreciated (by colleagues / customers / users) plays a big role as well.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#46

Post by tharkun__ »

chii wrote: post #16
paxys wrote: post #14

From my experience in the tech industry I can say with utmost confidence that "not smart"/"talentless" people who are determined and hard-working lead to significantly better real world results than geniuses who are lazy, unmotivated or overall not action oriented. The vast majority of problems at any company are easy and don't need any big technological breakthroughs to solve. They are instead held back by (1) lack…

> (1) lack of effort or (2) lack of organization. (3) lack of reward I say the former 2 is caused by 3. Why would anyone put in over-time to solve a problem, if they dont know how well they'd get rewarded by it? It's why small/founder owned startups get more done with less, because they know themselves how much reward they'd get when putting in the hard yards.

Your parent never mentions overtime. Personally I agree with his assessment and none of it requires overtime.

Lack of effort literally means people that show the level of effort your reply seems to suggest you are putting in. A normal level of effort, not just doing exactly as much as you need not to get fired is generally enough to stand out and have good results (output and pay wise). No overtime required.

A good level of organization helps in that regard because you aren't wasting any of the effort you are making. It cuts out the overtime by itself.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#47

Post by thrdbndndn »

chii wrote: post #16
paxys wrote: post #14

From my experience in the tech industry I can say with utmost confidence that "not smart"/"talentless" people who are determined and hard-working lead to significantly better real world results than geniuses who are lazy, unmotivated or overall not action oriented. The vast majority of problems at any company are easy and don't need any big technological breakthroughs to solve. They are instead held back by (1) lack…

> (1) lack of effort or (2) lack of organization. (3) lack of reward I say the former 2 is caused by 3. Why would anyone put in over-time to solve a problem, if they dont know how well they'd get rewarded by it? It's why small/founder owned startups get more done with less, because they know themselves how much reward they'd get when putting in the hard yards.

This is very true, but not sure how to solve it.

For a job where the "reward" (mainly salary) is fronted and somewhat fixed (no bonus or bonus isn't worth it), some (even most) people basically work as little as possible to not get themselves fired.

But it would also be challenging to change the rewarding structure to something similar to salesman.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#48

Post by kreeben »

iSnow wrote: post #43
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A group I've encountered that this could help are those without tenacity. I have smart friends who are hugely into tech who somehow remained unemployable even during the boom times in that industry. I try and try to push them towards opportunities but they argue 'I just have no natural talent for that' and stop before they even get started. Eg. they tried programming for 3 days, still hadn't fully groked it (because…

>The mere suggestion that you can't possibly do something should fill you with burning determination and it's a positive emotion to feel in that scenario but they seem to just roll over. Literally everyone with a somewhat weak self-esteem will shy away. Those friends of yours should maybe start programming as a hobby, for a small, defined project that scratches one of their itches, and then go from there. I am struct…

I like AnotherGoodName's advise, a lot. But as you say, it will hit a nerve only with people who already have some confidence in their abilities so if they hit a wall, instead of giving up, they say to themselves that "oh, I guess I just need to learn even more things" and then do. A person with low confidence in their abilities will probably say "oh, I'm not smart enough".

When it comes to this and most other trades, I'm with Gordon Ramsey. Anyone can become a good programmer. "Smartness" and "intelligence", they are such ill-defined concepts. I'm not sure I believe they are real things.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#49

Post by Lutger »

chii wrote: post #16
paxys wrote: post #14

From my experience in the tech industry I can say with utmost confidence that "not smart"/"talentless" people who are determined and hard-working lead to significantly better real world results than geniuses who are lazy, unmotivated or overall not action oriented. The vast majority of problems at any company are easy and don't need any big technological breakthroughs to solve. They are instead held back by (1) lack…

> (1) lack of effort or (2) lack of organization. (3) lack of reward I say the former 2 is caused by 3. Why would anyone put in over-time to solve a problem, if they dont know how well they'd get rewarded by it? It's why small/founder owned startups get more done with less, because they know themselves how much reward they'd get when putting in the hard yards.

2 and 3 are often intertwined. A lack of proper reward sometimes is exactly what lack of organization means or results in.

I've worked at many different jobs, the really dysfunctional ones tend to punish rather than reward good work.

Also, be careful with the overtime. A really well organized company is able to pay its employees for every hour that they work. They also don't need overtime to make up for dysfunctional planning. Overtime is, after all, a lack of reward by definition. That is, I'm assuming unpaid overtime of course.

Its not always like this, though in my experience the really messy organizations put a lot of value on overtime, either because there was a crisis all the time or it was the 'look me being busy (with my career)' kind of politicised org.

Re: How to do things if you're not that smart and don't have any talent

#50

Post by saberience »

kreeben wrote: post #48
iSnow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The mere suggestion that you can't possibly do something should fill you with burning determination and it's a positive emotion to feel in that scenario but they seem to just roll over. Literally everyone with a somewhat weak self-esteem will shy away. Those friends of yours should maybe start programming as a hobby, for a small, defined project that scratches one of their itches, and then go from there. I am struct…

I like AnotherGoodName's advise, a lot. But as you say, it will hit a nerve only with people who already have some confidence in their abilities so if they hit a wall, instead of giving up, they say to themselves that "oh, I guess I just need to learn even more things" and then do. A person with low confidence in their abilities will probably say "oh, I'm not smart enough". When it comes to this and most other trades…

Can you explain the reference to Gordon Ramsey? (and a link would be great if possible)
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