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Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

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Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#231
post #205

In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers. In the short term, though, this is likely to trigger a domino effect of other property developers defaulting and a lot of pain for everybody who (thought they had) bought property with them. The real tests are whether China will allow the Chinese entity to go…

> In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers. I unironically think a property bubble pop is a great way to defeat the demographic slump in the long term. That and the recent crackdown/reforms on private education makes me think the party is aware that property bubbles and education costs are a liability

The defaults changed, at least in the West.

When I was little it was still married-with-children by default, probably at relatively young age, and people had to decide not to have children. That was in part helped by the lack of widespread use of contraceptives. The norm in my primary school was two or three kids per family. I remember only one classmate with no brothers or sisters. Of course zero children families were not represented in there.

Now the default is single-no-children and you have to make an explicit choice to marry (you used to be nudged into it by society) and to have kids, by stopping to use contraceptives and to do all the things that long time singles are used to do.

Cost of housing, living, parenting is also an issue but I think that the default mindset is more important and sets the conditions for higher general costs: if on average people can spend all their money for themselves, the society and the market adjust and people who have to spend time and money also for kids are at a disadvantage.

If the default is changing in China too, their population is going to shrink no matter what.

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#232

In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers. In the short term, though, this is likely to trigger a domino effect of other property developers defaulting and a lot of pain for everybody who (thought they had) bought property with them. The real tests are whether China will allow the Chinese entity to go…

This is true. The (ironic) lack of control of property holding to sell moronic. Well, technically it is the lobby industry which helps no citizen when they push back for measures that avoid accumulation of properties causing the market to concentrate loads of money on real state for obvious reasons.

In my city, they tried to implement taxes for those who own more than two properties and it would be more expensive for properties that had no one living. The result is that the proposal was quietly removed from the voting in a Friday night before a weekend followed by long holidays.

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#233
post #43

That's going to be a tough liquidation. Who wants to buy a half-finished building abandoned during construction due to lack of a market? Such things have negative value.

> Who wants to buy a half-finished building abandoned during construction This is actually not a big deal at all if you are following modern high-rise construction techniques.

Yes I'm sure they're following all of those in China, and buildings don't just fall like a pancake

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#234

In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers. In the short term, though, this is likely to trigger a domino effect of other property developers defaulting and a lot of pain for everybody who (thought they had) bought property with them. The real tests are whether China will allow the Chinese entity to go…

> In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers.

The effect of China's property bubble was an oversupply of houses, leading to unnaturally low property prices. The long term effect will be a consolidation in the property branch, leading to less supply and higher property prices.

Whether this is good or bad I don't know, but it certainly will not lead to more affordable housing than right now.

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's Daily for the Party's view and SCMP for a slightly less biased view. There isn't really such a thing as free press covering China well, particularly in Asia. The closest thing was the Hong Kong press, but that got muzzled a few years back. RSF currently rates only Taiwan and South Korea as countries with free press in Asia, and those are not going to have the most unbiased view about China. https://rsf.org/e…

Japan press should be fine too.

The press in Japan is noted for a fair amount of self-censorship in regards to covering government and business. https://www.dw.com/en/why-japan-ranks-poorly-in-press-freedo...

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#236

This is only the Hong Kong business. Which is why it hasn't had the impact you would expect.

This reddit comment explains this quite well: https://old.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/1adnx32/evergran... > HK is sort of what NY is to the US. It is a peripheral region with some minor degree of autonomy but because it just so happens to house the Chinese version of Wall Street this means it’s judiciary is a little bit special when it comes to dealing with insolvency and other corporate issues. This means that i…

I have looked at the comment and this person is clueless. What matters here is jurisdiction, and Hong Kong is certainly a different jurisdiction. Political independence of Hong Kong is immaterial.

If you want some actual information I recommend "Cross-Border Insolvency between Chinese Mainland and Hong Kong: The Past, the Present, and the Future" (2022). https://ssrn.com/abstract=4100844

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#237
post #205

In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers. In the short term, though, this is likely to trigger a domino effect of other property developers defaulting and a lot of pain for everybody who (thought they had) bought property with them. The real tests are whether China will allow the Chinese entity to go…

> In the long term, the bursting of China's property bubble is probably good news, affordable housing is in the interest of everybody except property developers. I unironically think a property bubble pop is a great way to defeat the demographic slump in the long term. That and the recent crackdown/reforms on private education makes me think the party is aware that property bubbles and education costs are a liability

I wonder how much of the world's growth is squeezed by these kinds of inefficiencies.

Property speculation keeps prices high, and people paying off mortgages in dead-end jobs. Education costs force parents into difficult decisions to move out of HCOL areas where they likely have higher-value jobs. Energy and Water costs spike while providing no societal benefit.

The West is obsessed with keeping these in place, the rising East seems better placed to change economic inefficiencies. Not sure how it'll play out but I feel like Western society is being pillaged by the PE crowd who can take advantage of the above.

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#238
post #228
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that's going to help. The decades of property bubble has changed the mindset of the people. Just look at Japan, it's property bubble burst was decades ago, but till now, are there any signs of turnaround? Young people have enough trouble just to get a shelter and feed themselves, and now you want them to have kids which add more pressure onto what they are already struggling to coup with. How likely is that?

Yeah, it's gonna be very hard to get the genie to go back into the bottle, people won't forget that real estate is very powerful for financial speculation, and that even if the bubble bursts again and again you have plenty of years with amazing returns. At least the same hasn't happened with food and drinkable water yet.

The problem gets deeper: This may sound insane, but I would argue that the productivity is way too high. There is too much stuff, which is too cheap, which makes it too hard to make money by actually producing anything. This it turn splits the economy into two groups: One that doesn't have money, live scrapping the bottom, and typically in debt. The other that does have money, with no good opportunities to invest, which causes bubbles.

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#239
> Months after China Evergrande ran out of cash and defaulted in 2021, investors around the world scooped up the property developer’s discounted I.O.U.’s, betting that the Chinese government would eventually step in to bail it out.

One thing investors should always be clear about with the CCP - as a foreigner you will always be screwed over if it benefits the CCP. The CCP is extremely hostile, even having strained relations with other Communist Countries [1].

> After two years in limbo, and with over $300 billion in debt, Evergrande was ordered by a judge in Hong Kong to liquidate, a move that will set off a race by lawyers to try to find and grab anything belonging to Evergrande that can be sold.

This will not pay out foreign holders of I.O.U.'s, because of this:

> There isn’t a lot left in Evergrande’s sprawling empire that still has value. And any assets that are valuable may be off limits because property in China has become intertwined with politics.

I hope this is a lesson to investors.

I ultimately feel sorry for the people who invested into housing and who are now stuck with mortgages they must continue to pay despite having no property. T

> Financial markets in mainland China and Hong Kong — a city that has for years been an entry point for foreign investment — have received such a blow that officials are scrambling to find policy measures like a stock market rescue fund to shore up confidence. On Sunday, they moved to stop short selling, a practice that allows investors to bet against a stock.

The CCP over-stepped and took Hong Kong, which should still be under partial UK control and therefore an attractive entry for foreign investment. The CCP caused foreign investment in Hong Kong to be withdrawn and got this ball rolling.

This is just the beginning. Almost all provinces in China are now broke and the economy has taken a very significant down-turn. Property is one of their largest investments and I am not aware of a financially good developer operating in China. There appears to already be talk of restrictions on bank withdrawals to prevent a run on the banks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_relations

Re: Real estate giant China Evergrande will be liquidated

#240
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's gonna be very hard to get the genie to go back into the bottle, people won't forget that real estate is very powerful for financial speculation, and that even if the bubble bursts again and again you have plenty of years with amazing returns. At least the same hasn't happened with food and drinkable water yet.

The problem gets deeper: This may sound insane, but I would argue that the productivity is way too high. There is too much stuff, which is too cheap, which makes it too hard to make money by actually producing anything. This it turn splits the economy into two groups: One that doesn't have money, live scrapping the bottom, and typically in debt. The other that does have money, with no good opportunities to invest, wh…

Ye the competition is too high in the base and the profit taken by middle men.

However, I think covid changed that, where producers collectivly realized that if they just raise prices the middle men need to pay up.

Being stuck in a sector that operates "efficiently" sucks. You want guilds, like lawyers and doctors, or inefficiency, like the financial sector.

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