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Everyone hates the electronic medical record

logicmag.io

81–90 of 343 posts

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#82
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In-N-Out instead of McDonalds, What is this comparison trying to illustrate?

A lot of facilities run on a McDonalds type thinking when they should be looking at how In-N-Out is able to deliver a very similar product that is both dramatically better and either the same price or even cheaper. In-N-Out staff is well compensated, customers rate the institution as one of the most beloved in american life. McDonalds achieves neither of those things. What makes In-N-Out different? The difference is…

Can you please add more details/examples? The current responses seem to be a bit broad/vague to follow.

E.g. what are your recommendations? pay staff more? i.e. increase doctor pay?

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#83

> Patient R was in a hurry. I signed into my computer—or tried to. Recently, IT had us update to a new 14-digit password. Once in, I signed (different password) into the electronic medical record That's IT infrastructure incompetence, not an EMR issue. At the two healthcare systems I go to, both utilize RFID badge readers plus PIN. In the ER and urgent care, nurses need only tap their badge and enter a quick pin and…

I could see that badge system easily costing a million+ dollars, fyi. RFID identity management is an entire platform in itself and is extremely expensive.

A lot of hospitals already use it for things like door access. Sometimes parking tagged on too.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#84

I wrote a thesis on EHR's 7 years ago. They really haven't seemed to improve much. I personally think a big part of the issue is actually scope, these systems are expected to do everything - medical notes, script ordering, appointment management, billing of course, and 3000 other things. This weirdly leads to a distribution problem, you can't be a serious competitor in just one area, you have to do everything. Only t…

This is absolutely true in my experience as well.

Ironically, it's also a somewhat of a circular problem, given the inherent complexity of medical processes, every organization has organically formed their processes over decades. When choosing software solutions, they pick software that caters to their specific needs, rather than change processes to fit existing software. This results in vendors building endlessly configurable products that add even more complexity. As a potential new entrant, this means you'd need to not only support N processes, but something like (number of clients) * N processes.

There are some initiatives towards EHR interop (e.g. FHIR), but from what I've seen so far, they suffer from similar problems. As in the standard is made so flexible to cover all situations that you can make things that are 100% compliant, but completely incompatible.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#85
When I watch people use them, the UIs look like information overload and cumbersome for the user. It's just old corporate database development: Develop the database, then dump all the fields into a UI. Add some section headers. I would resent using that so often every day.

> There is an illusion that technology automates work—instead it only changes it.

That seems like an odd statement. For example, some technology is automating delivering this text to HN servers, and then to you. HN wouldn't exist without that technology.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#86
post #49

I created the ClearHealth/HealthCloud open source (GPL) EMR which to my knowledge is the only open source one to receive full federal certification. Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems. This article is a doctors perspective on how software did not fix a completely broken workflow. I don't begrudge him…

"Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems."

"In my experience doctors are a tremendous barrier to resolving problems in healthcare operations,"

I'm a hospital-based physician that works in a system with great operations and results. The physicians, nurses and other staff work amicably together. Management is reasonable/nice. The EMR, though is universally despised. No one likes it. It is a major factor in burnout. The UI/UX is inconsistent. There are slowdowns and outages daily. There is a well known lag in the appearance of text in text boxes after typing that seems to be variable. I've caught the EMR cancelling orders I placed on critically ill patients in the ICU more times than I can count. We have to actively protect the patients from the EMR. Healthcare workers aren't perfect but they are trying to do their best for very ill people in a high-risk setting and the EMR is well-known blocker. I long for the days of paper records because this is worse. Paper charts didn't go offline, have slowdowns, didn't lose orders, were easily located, and easy to enter data into.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may jest but I wouldn't mind this model. i.e. Records are under a digital lock to which I hold the key, and can grant access to a medical professional service provider for a period of time with set access expiry. Written records at least provided some physical locality that made me feel less at risk, and it was also easy for me to ask for a photocopy for my own records (I'm surprised how many people just entrust…

the issue arises when you are unconcious and there are certain risks to treating you the staff needs to know about. Maybe your throat closes for benedryl but you're showing obvious signs of an allergy? Maybe you have a pre-existing condition which gives you symptoms that signal a stroke? the risk is always going to be there

Isn’t this the case with most emergency situations? My guess is that if that I end up in the ER unconscious they’ll have no records on me…

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, all industries? The profit margin guarantees this. Anyone who has worked in private industry will verify its utter incompetence in the long term.

[flagged]

This the most dramatic HN comment I've ever read I've been laughing for like 10 mins straight hahaha.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#89
I have worked for a company developing HMS/EHR and a hospital implementing/integrating these systems.

Before you think "my startup can do better" understand the core problem: legal and actual processes. Medical is heavily regulated, not only at the point of care, but likewise on the administrative side.

In the event of an adverse effect the hospital and medical team(s) involved must be able to provide clear track record of following the protocols. The administrative team must have the data to provide all the required metrics.

Suppose a simple bloodwork protocol: nurse draws blood, delivers to lab, lab does analysis, results are funky, lab releases invalid report indicating rejected sample, doctor issues redoing of bloodwork, nurse draws blood again and so on. Sample rejection is recorded somewhere, distorts statistics for admin, costs time. In practice, in the event of suspected badly drawn sample nurse is internally informed of that to redeliver the sample, lab releases clean report, sample vial is recorded as discarded by nurse, business goes on.

Medical is FULL of these tiny optimizations around protocols. However, any HMS must follow the protocol, implement safeguards against divergence from protocol, yet to be user friendly it must accommodate all those deviations while still providing "correct" track record with eventually consistent timestamps and so on.

Timings can be very important. For example at ER priority levels dictate not only queue ordering, but also time to care. With HMS implemented it becomes crucial to record times correctly (both from CYOA and metrics standpoints), therefore from the perspective of user, the HMS becomes first priority over caring for patient. Users inevitably complain :)

In certain protocols timings also play a huge role in determining care type. Discharge a patient in x hours and it is outpatient care, fail to discharge patient in x hours and the case promotes to inpatient care, with all the associated complexities of care and documentation. Patient returns in x hours - it's the same case. Fail to provide care in x hours - different treatment protocol.

Readers may think "just provide sane defaults for common case and let staff explicitly record uncommon cases". That simply does not work. Defaults are defaults and users submit defaults. Having insane defaults actually prevents hospital admin/it/legal from being overwhelmed with correcting submitted data. Users complain.

It's ugly. You have to juggle between good care, actual processes, legally required processes, metrics and what not to make the system usable and correct where every user is adversary.

EDIT to add:

On top of all that, every hospital has unique implementation of processes and structures. The differences may not necessarily be major, but there are differences.

Any HMS that intends to become a commodity instead of custom project for a single hospital or department must be highly customizable. first, high customizability typically misses optimization (especially workflow optimization) opportunities. Second, implementing HMS is akin to implementing SAP: the end result is amalgamation between core product developed by a vendor and implementation by hospital admin/legal/it. Many here have either first-hand experience or close knowledge why implementing ERPs (HMS is an ERP) typically lead to barely usable monstrosities. The stakeholders at organization typically have neither working understanding of underlying processes and policies and how they tie together nor will to implement processes and policies more suitable to be managed via ERP.

Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record

#90
My first job out of college was working at Epic Systems as a mostly Windows sysadmin. It was a fascinating (and great!) experience. I've never seen such an advanced Windows sysadmin setup before.

I only briefly touched upon EMRs and the MUMPS/Cache stuff they did there. However, I also learned PowerShell to a much deeper level than probably 99% of Linux folks ever do. We did TDD, code review, CI/CD pipelines for fucking PowerShell. It was painful right up until the point where I internalized the Tao of PoSH, and then I realized that PowerShell actually rules for readability and maintainability when you have people who know what they're doing.

HNers by and large don't understand the economics of PowerShell. There is a very low supply of competent PoSh devs on the market, and even fewer interested in credibly signaling their proficiency, but a very high demand for them, because a lot of places still run everything on Windows, and guess what's installed on virtually all of them? I've even been able to take on a few consulting gigs that boil down to "take our 100,000 line un-version-controlled PowerShell monstrosity hacked together over the last 13 years and turn it into something we can actually understand, please".

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