Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a mainframe. If you can't get excited for mainframes it'll be hard to be excited about this. IllumOS is the OS/360 to Oxide's System/360. (It won't get that popular but it's a fair enough comparison for illustrative purposes)
It's a mainframe, for people who do not, actually, know what a mainframe is or does.
Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
171–180 of 268 posts
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hope they sooner or later release a smaller, cheaper, homelab product for people to learn or for startups that will lead to future rack sales or workers.
This is a common request and we absolutely understand the desire, but I suspect such a thing, if ever, will be a long time off. Given that the product is designed as an entire rack, doing something like this would effectively be a different product for a different vertical, and we have to focus on our current business. Honestly it's kind of frustrating not being able to reciprocate the enthusiasm back in more than ju…
Some examples:
x86 owned the desktop, workstation and laptop world for a long time. So everyone targeted x86, which made x86 the default in the datacenter. It was hard for ARM to break in and it mostly happened when AWS did it by fiat. If ARM had made some loss-leader actually useful laptops and workstations available, it might have happened sooner.
But x86 largely didn’t deploy AVX-512 in client machines, so people who wrote libraries only used it for fun or benchmarking, so it wasn’t widely used, and most users flubbed it anyway. (And might have gotten it right if they had the hardware on their desk.)
People target Nvidia datacenter GPUs. But people have targeted them for a long time, because they have them in their gaming machines too.
Xilinx used to push free academic gear quite hard, because that was a big lead into people learning how to use their gear.
So, if I were giving Oxide straightforward sales advice, absolutely don’t get distracted with small systems. But maybe, if Oxide thought of it as lead generation, Oxide should do it anyway. If I could buy something small enough to be affordable but big enough to be useful [0], I might get one. And I’d target it with my own stuff, and fix bugs, and evangelize it at little cost to Oxide.
[0] For me, maybe 100-150TB of spinning rust (or cheap NVMe or the ability to attach a JBOD), plus anywhere from 4-64 cores, in a format that works on 120V and fits in, say, 16U or less, at a credible price point, would be quite likely to net Oxide a sale. (Just one sale but still!) It could be sold as a developer thing, and there would be absolutely no expectation that it would perform like the real thing. If I found it awesome, I might buy a couple more. But I would also use it and make things work on it and talk about it, and if a whole bunch of people did this, Oxide might get a bunch of real sales.
(Also, I get the idea behind two SKUs, but can buyers at least configure storage and compute separately? Different workloads need radically different ratios.)
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#173I know they’re ex-Sun, but is there any real technical benefit for choosing not-Linux (for their business value prop)? I know of the technical benefits of illumos over linux, but does that actually matter to the customers who are buying these? Aren’t they opening a whole can of worms for ideology/tradition that won’t sell any more computers? As someone who runs Linux container workloads, the fact that this is fundame…
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#174I'm really curious: what kind of workload would companies want to run on a custom Unix that isn't Linux/Mac/BSD? I'm rooting for more mature OS diversity, I just have no idea who the end users would be and what their needs would look like.
As for why they used Illumos, many of the people came from Sun, Joyent, etc. so there's an obvious bias. However they do have a compelling reason that this is not an IBM compatible x86 personal computer, there's no BIOS, no UEFI, no traditional BMC, as far as I can tell they've removed as much proprietary firmware and binary blobs as they could possibly remove, while still using modern x86.
Each sled has a service processor and a hardware root of trust that directly boots the CPU, loads the AMD training blob, and boots the OS. It would be difficult to upstream the changes required to do that into a Linux or BSD for a computer only you currently have. So you'd have to maintain your own downstream fork, there is no one else responsible for the robustness of the OS, so it might as well be OS that you have had to support and develop for years.
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#175oh wow ... can't wait to waste a bunch of time trying to get this running in hyper-v.
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a common request and we absolutely understand the desire, but I suspect such a thing, if ever, will be a long time off. Given that the product is designed as an entire rack, doing something like this would effectively be a different product for a different vertical, and we have to focus on our current business. Honestly it's kind of frustrating not being able to reciprocate the enthusiasm back in more than ju…
For what it’s worth, there’s a somewhat common view at least in the Linux community that it’s important for hardware vendors to make their tech stack targetable from the office or home. This isn’t to be polite or to make money — it’s to foster adoption among developers, which drives sales. Some examples: x86 owned the desktop, workstation and laptop world for a long time. So everyone targeted x86, which made x86 the…
> (Also, I get the idea behind two SKUs, but can buyers at least configure storage and compute separately? Different workloads need radically different ratios.)
Right now, this early: no. Sleds have compute and storage located together, so the unit of customization is currently "number of sleds in the rack" which according to https://oxide.computer/product/specifications apparently is currently three, not two, at the moment: 16, 24 or 32 sleds.
You are right that these need to be different for certain customers and workloads, we just aren't ready to support those just yet. We'll get there. Same issue, different aspect.
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wouldn't a "full AWS experience in their datacenter" be AWS Outpost?
Is AWS outpost truly a full AWS stack/experience? I thought it wasn't actually meant to be a "data center in a box" experience, but more so a way to run some workloads locally when you are already using AWS for everything else.
e.g., https://www.scylladb.com/2020/09/15/scylla-cloud-on-aws-outp...
Disclosure: I worked at ScyllaDB.
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is Oxide for GPU-heavy workloads?
There are no GPUs in the rack, so pretty bad, haha. We certainly understand that there's space in the market for a GPU-focused product, but that's a different one than the one we're starting the company off with. There's additional challenge with how we as a company desire openness, and GPUs are incredibly proprietary. We'll see what the future brings. Luckily for us many people still desire good old classic CPU comp…
At $work I'm running SmartOS servers with GPU passing to a ubuntu bhyve for the occasional CUDA compute and it works wonderfully. Wonder if similar could be possible with Helios?
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#179Can anyone ELI5 what Oxide's offer is? I've looked at their website and still got no clue. Is it hardware + software I can purchase and use on-premise? Is it a PaaS / yet another cloud provider?
On-prem, fully-integrated compute and storage solution with cloud-like APIs to provision resources, all with a commitment to open source.
Re: Helios: A distribution of Illumos powering the Oxide Rack
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your hiring decisions are always based on what people are currently familiar with, you'll always be stuck in the past. You may not even be able to use present day tooling and systems because they could be too new to hire people for. You're much better off hiring people who are capable of learning, and then giving them the opportunities to learn and advance their knowledge and skills.
Everyone is capable of learning. I can hire someone who is capable of learning Japanese. They can then try to teach the rest of the team Japanese. Does that mean it's a good idea to switch all our internal docs to Japanese? Maybe if I was building a startup in Japan. Similarly, writing internal docs in English for a startup in Japan would be of equal difficulty and value. Hooray, we're learning! And struggling more t…
The difference between Japanese and English is much, much bigger than the difference between one Unix OS and one Unix-like OS. This is a remarkably disingenuous argument. If you really don't understand the difference in scope, there's no point in discussing anything with you because you've managed to disprove your opening sentence with yourself as the counterexample.