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OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

computerworld.com

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Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#11

Post by romwell »

macspoofing wrote: post #6
ipython wrote: post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

>These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

>In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

Google directs people to the people that created content and their platforms, allowing them to profit off of their labor.

ChatGPT completely obscures the source.

Simple enough, it seems.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#12

Post by jchw »

macspoofing wrote: post #6
ipython wrote: post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

>These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

Indexing content provides a useful service that content owners benefit from, too, so for a long time, there was definitely a mutual understanding between Google and site owners. I think the relationship has soured, somewhat coincidentally, in large part due to the way that Google has started to push against actually linking to sites, like by trying to provide inline answers and using AMP caches to avoid actually dropping the user out of Google's Search UI.

Personally, I think society is built on top of unspoken agreements that couldn't really be meaningfully codified, but then immensely harmed by those who exploit the resulting relationships that formed as a result of said unspoken agreements. The Internet's openness was once its biggest asset, but it feels like it quickly became the biggest liability almost overnight.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#13

Post by garrickvanburen »

macspoofing wrote: post #6
ipython wrote: post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

>These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

Key differences are in crediting sources and where the revenue comes from:

- Google became a trillion-dollar company off advertising along side the search offering - the search offering itself linked back to sources and was fully available for $0.

- OpenAI is opaque with crediting sources and currently charges $20/mn for better output .

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#14

Post by corethree »

Technically it's not a copy. And nothing was stolen. It's a best fit curve among a series of datapoints. The datapoint is a copy, if the best fit curve never touches the datapoint then it's technically not a copy.

The difficult part is the technicality here is legal and ethical from any standpoint. The high level ramifications are a bit unfair in the sense that yes the data is being used to create an AI that can replace you and your job from data you created to DO your job.

This is the conundrum with AI. Our legal system and moral intuition makes it permissible to read and interpret things which is pretty much all ML does. Does it make sense to make it illegal for someone to learn programming for free from online articles? No. Does it make sense to make it illegal for someone to learn programming for free from online articles to take over your job? No. Should it be illegal to use tools to help me learn programming for free by using tools to help me read for free from online articles so I can take over your job? No.

But if that tool is AI, suddenly, Yes, it should be illegal. The logic makes no sense. But we shouldn't rely on logic to maintain our morals, even if it doesn't hold logical cohesion if the outcomes are negative it should still be immoral imo.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#15

Post by bugglebeetle »

macspoofing wrote: post #6
ipython wrote: post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

>These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

Google has suffered years of lawsuits that IIRC are still unresolved as a result of doing what OpenAI is doing (scraping the entire internet and using the content in their products).

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#16

Post by Kiro »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #4

Hard disagree. The whole concept of copyright is unnatural and technology evolution is showing its limits. In the same way a writer reads books and use that knowledge to create more, an ai model can do the same.

Imagine getting downvoted for this on a forum called Hacker News. Embarrassing that we have become copyright zealots.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#17

Post by Silphendio »

I really hate this article. They compared training ChatGPT to actual copy&paste sites without any supporting argument, complained about how much money OpenAI is making without paying them, and finished with blaming generative AI for the declining quality in Google search results.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#18

Post by moralestapia »

macspoofing wrote: post #6
ipython wrote: post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

>These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

That is (was) the issue when Google started providing answers along with the search results, answers which were sourced from somewhere else and whose author is not Google.

I don't think they should get away with that as it violates all of the safe harbor clauses from copyright law.

So, to answer your question, they're both doing bad things.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#19

Post by jprete »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #4

Hard disagree. The whole concept of copyright is unnatural and technology evolution is showing its limits. In the same way a writer reads books and use that knowledge to create more, an ai model can do the same.

All property is unnatural. What's your point?

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#20

Post by logiduck »

Of course there is fair use, etc etc. But modern copyright was a reaction to the printing press so that people were motivated to still create content in the face of new technology.

If current copyright laws do not protect people from creating something new because of fear that they will be ripped off, then new copyright laws need to come.

One thing I wondered about how arguments from one side of the issue say that AI copying and extracting information for free isn't stealing, but what if you use their argument against things that aren't copyright like secrets, military, corporate, trade secrets.

Like can if an LLM saw the coca-cola forumla and the weights are released, what are the consequences? If it ingested top secret confidential information and released the weights, I assume that counts as stealing something and distributing it.

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