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How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

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Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#121

Post by anonymouskimmer »

mjburgess wrote: post #114
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you're presupposing "performance" as a measure of intelligence, and what you mean by it. No one is saying that intelligence alone (above a threshold) equates to demonstrated, or even potential, life outcomes.

then your definitions are circular, "intelligence is whatever the IQ test measures, assuming it measures anything" this is no way to establish validity or reliability. you need an independent theory of intelligence and a variety of indepenent objective measures -- otherwise the whole enterprise is circular

Again, I wrote that I don't understand what you mean by "performance", so you can't claim a circular definition yet. In the context of intelligence or IQ the word "performance" means to me either demonstration of something (and I don't understand what you expect CEOs to be demonstrating other than attaining a particular social position), or the "performance score" of the Wechler IQ test.

> you need an independent theory of intelligence

Sure. We have some of these. Despite it's flaws and limitations I'm partial to portions of Guilford's Structure of Intellect.

> and a variety of indepenent objective measures

The various sub-tests in an IQ test are nominally independent, yes? Going back to your "CEOs", I don't see how a social position can be assumed to be objective when it is subjectively contingent on external social processes.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#122

Post by Viliam1234 »

roenxi wrote: post #71
PeterisP wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They obviously didn't, and didn't need to - that sentence is not making any assertion, it is suggesting a hypothesis that can be tested in future work by them or others. The sole assertion this study is making is about the existence of the effect, and it is only speculating (and not hiding that it's speculating) about a possible mechanism causing that effect. And obviously further details relating to this observation…

And, indeed, makes for some rather interesting follow up questions... * Is this genuinely just a different way of processing rewards? * Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward? * Is there a capability gap at playing games? Or different responses to games themselves? I don't think it makes intuitive sense that limited rewards leads to a lower response, so my guess is low SES children probably have a…

> Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward?

Maybe they understand that the money will be soon taken away by the adults.

Either literally taken away, or simply the next time the kids need something, they will be told "now that you have money, you can buy it for yourself" (effectively taxing the income at ~ 100% rate).

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#123

Post by Viliam1234 »

LtWorf wrote: post #113
unwise-exe wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know for a fact that genetics has a large influence on intelligence. We know for a fact that genetics has a large influence on personality. . We know for a fact that (at scale*) intelligence is the single largest influence on success. IIRC, we're pretty sure that (at scale*) personality is the second largest influence on success. I.e., if you measure all the possible things that might influence success and run a p…

No we don't know for a fact any of these things.

Perhaps you don't, but dismissing an entire field of science...

Well, if you can make a strong statement without any supporting argument, so can I.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#124

Post by justanotherjoe »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #120
justanotherjoe wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

umm... do you mean christianity? Cause that's not lower-class.

> do you mean christianity? Cause that's not lower-class Attend services in upper-middle and high-income churches, and then in lower-middle and low-income churches. The messaging around money is different. Same when you hear parents teaching their kids.

i don't know. I think the lived reality of their lives is more the cause. I mean, if this study really is what it claims. You assign too much blame on people who are already unfortunate. I guess thats what sets me off.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#125

Post by Viliam1234 »

santoshalper wrote: post #25
solardev wrote: post #2

This is fascinating. Thanks for sharing! I wonder if this has implications about the sense of agency people from different backgrounds feel (or not) in their lives.

Quite the opposite, people who have grown up in rewarding environments tend to be more "ambitious" (my word, not theirs) because they have been conditioned to believe that ambition is rewarded. On the other hand, people who have grown up in poverty have been conditioned to believe that excellence doesn't really matter since there are few or no rewards to be had. Keep in mind, this is well below the level of conscious…

This indeed. When you live in a friendly environment, whenever you do something right, you achieve some small success. When you live in an unfriendly environment, you need to get many things right at the same time, otherwise it all falls apart. So if you don't trust yourself to do everything flawlessly, there is almost no point in trying.

Also, if you succeed once in the friendly environment, you get praise and more support in your efforts. If you succeed in the unfriendly environment, people assume that you either cheated or simply got lucky but it won't happen again. So even after you succeeded at some small thing, it may still feel like there is no point.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#126

Post by pvg »

concordDance wrote: post #115
Arn_Thor wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't this only apply to research from the USA? No. Lots of people from wealthy (and predominantly white) countries across the world have the same kinds of motivations. To recognize that the existing structure of the world split between the haves and the have-nots is created only by human choices, not a natural state, is to admit to oneself: that one’s station in life is more luck than merit, that one is part of…

[flagged]

Let's not have this chat again

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38704396

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#127

Post by chrismcb »

roenxi wrote: post #100
hmcq6 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"* Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward?" As in they're stupid? How would they not understand it's a reward. "* Is there a capability gap at playing games? Or different responses to games themselves?" From the article - "Unbeknownst to the participants, the game was set up to control whether the guess would be correct or incorrect." So no... that's not a possibility

> As in they're stupid? How would they not understand it's a reward. A lot of people, if you give them a dollar they'll try to spend it on something. And that, counterintuitively, means they don't see the dollar as a reward. Someone who sees the dollar as a reward will put the dollar on their pile of dollars and then feel good because they have a dollar. The dollar, in itself, is the reward. If someone is dirt poor,…

If the dollar bill itself is the reward, it is a worthless reward. I may as well give you a piece of paper that says "reward" on it. The dollar is a reward because it can be exchanged for something.
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