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How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

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Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#91

Post by JumpCrisscross »

jojobas wrote: post #81
romaaeterna wrote: post #5

fMRI results show that children from lower-SES backgrounds are less stimulated by monetary rewards. "The findings suggest that lower SES circumstances may prompt the brain to adapt to the environment..." Wow! How did they control for the possibility that a heritable reward-focus in the parents leads to the SES results? Or that other factors, such as higher engagement or game-competence, might have led to this result?…

>the possibility that a heritable reward-focus in the parents leads to the SES results This would imply that the problem with poor people lies within themselves rather than the society, which is an unacceptable proposition.

> which is an unacceptable proposition

Why?

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#92

Post by unwise-exe »

LtWorf wrote: post #63
dusted wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought too, ofc. it's not a popular idea these days that genetics and heredity might have some bearing on success, but it does seem worthwhile looking into.. Anecdote time, I identified the reward-seeking behaviour in my peers in early childhood and didn't understand it, I felt they were acting like dogs, being overtly manipulated to do what the grownups wanted, and I felt disgusted with the idea. (I was…

Looking into? Sure! Claiming that it's already established science when it absolutely isn't however…

We know for a fact that genetics has a large influence on intelligence.

We know for a fact that genetics has a large influence on personality.

.

We know for a fact that (at scale*) intelligence is the single largest influence on success.

IIRC, we're pretty sure that (at scale*) personality is the second largest influence on success.

I.e., if you measure all the possible things that might influence success and run a principal component analysis, intelligence is the first component and personality the second.

* Nepotism and such exist, but extreme cases are actually not that common.

.

It should not be controversial to acknowledge both part A and part B at the same time.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#93

Post by AliveShine »

theshackleford wrote: post #67
almostnormal wrote: post #30

A dollar is not a dollar. A dollar is something different for kids than it is for their parents. A dollar for a kid of rich patents is not the same as a dollar for a kid of poorer parents. Poorer parents likely try to keep worries about money as far from their kids as they can, even if not easy. Rich parents might casually discuss investment ideas at a common dinner. As a result a dollar may be seen much more as a re…

Anecdotal obviously, but mine made no such attempt. I was reminded constantly of our financial situation and furthermore, was normally informed through various means how it was my fault for one reason or another. Yay.

how were you informed that it was your fault?

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#94

Post by unwise-exe »

> fMRI

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/scicurious-brain/ignobe...

> “If you’re in a highly resourced environment, with many rewards available, your brain gets tuned in a certain way. If you’re in an environment in which rewards are more scarce, then your brain accommodates the environment in which you live. Instead of being overresponsive to rewards, it seems like these brains, on average, are less responsive, because probably their environment has been less consistent in the availability of rewards,” says John Gabrieli, the Grover Hermann Professor of Health Sciences and Technology, a professor of brain and cognitive sciences, and a member of MIT’s McGovern Institute for Brain Research.

So, "Kids aren't as excited about getting things they're not familiar with."?

>"Here you got a thing"

A>>"um cool I guess"

B>>"oh nice I know something I can do with that!"

that ^^ sort of scenario?

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#95

Post by hmcq6 »

unwise-exe wrote: post #94

> fMRI https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/scicurious-brain/ignobe... > “If you’re in a highly resourced environment, with many rewards available, your brain gets tuned in a certain way. If you’re in an environment in which rewards are more scarce, then your brain accommodates the environment in which you live. Instead of being overresponsive to rewards, it seems like these brains, on average, are less responsive, b…

No... there's an example in the article.

It means that kid A's brain wont reward them as much when they complete a task that leads to rewards. Which in theory would lead to less motivation to undertake those kinds of tasks in the first place. The example in the article uses money, the kids obviously know what money is or it wouldn't be a motivator.

Basically, we're training poor kids to not even try because their brains have adapted to just accept the fact that it wont get the resources it needs.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#96

Post by hmcq6 »

roenxi wrote: post #71
PeterisP wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They obviously didn't, and didn't need to - that sentence is not making any assertion, it is suggesting a hypothesis that can be tested in future work by them or others. The sole assertion this study is making is about the existence of the effect, and it is only speculating (and not hiding that it's speculating) about a possible mechanism causing that effect. And obviously further details relating to this observation…

And, indeed, makes for some rather interesting follow up questions... * Is this genuinely just a different way of processing rewards? * Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward? * Is there a capability gap at playing games? Or different responses to games themselves? I don't think it makes intuitive sense that limited rewards leads to a lower response, so my guess is low SES children probably have a…

"* Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward?"

As in they're stupid? How would they not understand it's a reward.

"* Is there a capability gap at playing games? Or different responses to games themselves?"

From the article - "Unbeknownst to the participants, the game was set up to control whether the guess would be correct or incorrect."

So no... that's not a possibility

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#97

Post by theshackleford »

AliveShine wrote: post #93
theshackleford wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal obviously, but mine made no such attempt. I was reminded constantly of our financial situation and furthermore, was normally informed through various means how it was my fault for one reason or another. Yay.

how were you informed that it was your fault?

The words "this is all you fault and we wish we never had you" and similar phrases and discussions, often including wishes they had followed through with abortions were used often and frequently. And this was not general, this was out and out "you are the reason we don't have money/can't do nice things/cant afford a mortgage" etc were levied at me again and again, over and over. For a significant chunk of my childhood my parents laid all faults in their life directly at my feet, to my face, when I had barely the capacity to understand the world around me let alone counter with any kind of argument.

I was eventually removed from my parents through the assistance of the courts and my grandparents who were witness to the significant mental and physical abuse I suffered at the hand of my parents. They had to spend the remainder of my youth/teens attempting to reverse the idea I had gained that everything that occurred in life of a negative nature must be inherently my fault, and the behavioural issues I had picked up resulting from that. By explaining that adults make choices, choices I cant be held responsible for when I had yet to even be born, etc etc. How successful they were is debatable because even into adulthood I've a tendency to assign blame/accept blame when it is apparently unwarranted according to those around me over the last couple of decades.

Aka my first assumption is always "this must be my fault in some way." even if I can not see an immediate manner in which that could possibly be true.

For context; my parents were actually poor because my mother never finished school, fell pregnant with me at 15, made poor life choices and her and my stepfather pissed most of their money away on cannabis for the duration of the time I was raised by them. Cannabis first, everything else later, if at all.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#98

Post by hmcq6 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #91
jojobas wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the possibility that a heritable reward-focus in the parents leads to the SES results This would imply that the problem with poor people lies within themselves rather than the society, which is an unacceptable proposition.

> which is an unacceptable proposition Why?

Well first of all its circular logic.

They're dumb because they're poor They're poor because they're dumb.

Setting aside my moral issues with the idea of Economic Phrenology I think this is an acceptable checkpoint to stop at when trying to reason out an answer. Feel free to stop, look around stretch out your legs. And then get back on that train of thought and take it to the end. Why are they poor?

There's the circular logic argument of "well cuz they're dumb" but that ignores generational wealth, the gender wage gap, systemic inequality, luck, economics, and just a general lack of equity of opportunity.

Some people smart people choose low paying jobs because it brings them a fulfillment money cant. Some dumb people get rich off the lottery.

And like... We've all seen rich peoples kids. They're not all geniuses.

It's just not a coherent belief. It is demonstrably not true.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#99

Post by Gibbon1 »

hmcq6 wrote: post #98
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which is an unacceptable proposition Why?

Well first of all its circular logic. They're dumb because they're poor They're poor because they're dumb. Setting aside my moral issues with the idea of Economic Phrenology I think this is an acceptable checkpoint to stop at when trying to reason out an answer. Feel free to stop, look around stretch out your legs. And then get back on that train of thought and take it to the end. Why are they poor? There's the circu…

I remember high school, coach organized a wrestling match played out over a week. You had 32 matches. The winners competed in 16 matches. The winners of that competed in 8 matches. Then 4 matches, then 2 matches then the final match.

When you've built an economic system that distributes wealth that way you can't cast moral aspersions on the losers. Because that's what it does, creates losers by design.

Re: How the brain responds to reward is linked to socioeconomic background

#100

Post by roenxi »

hmcq6 wrote: post #96
roenxi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, indeed, makes for some rather interesting follow up questions... * Is this genuinely just a different way of processing rewards? * Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward? * Is there a capability gap at playing games? Or different responses to games themselves? I don't think it makes intuitive sense that limited rewards leads to a lower response, so my guess is low SES children probably have a…

"* Do low SES children not understand that money is a reward?" As in they're stupid? How would they not understand it's a reward. "* Is there a capability gap at playing games? Or different responses to games themselves?" From the article - "Unbeknownst to the participants, the game was set up to control whether the guess would be correct or incorrect." So no... that's not a possibility

> As in they're stupid? How would they not understand it's a reward.

A lot of people, if you give them a dollar they'll try to spend it on something. And that, counterintuitively, means they don't see the dollar as a reward. Someone who sees the dollar as a reward will put the dollar on their pile of dollars and then feel good because they have a dollar. The dollar, in itself, is the reward.

If someone is dirt poor, I assume they don't have a habit of seeing money as the end in itself.

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