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Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

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21–30 of 38 posts

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#21
post #20
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the top of my head, cadmium and lead, low level radioactive waste from associated lithium extraction from spodumene concentrates, pools of acids as a result of rare earth processing, etc. Solar, wind, batteries etc are growing but as yet are only a small percentage of the energy produced by coal - as coal is phased out and replaced the waste from renewables will grow. To be absolutely clear, I am not anti renewabl…

> > What waste from solar and wind is not recyclable? > Of the top of my head, cadmium and lead, Lead isn't recyclable?

Isn't being recycled ... which is the real issue.

Mining waste from copper, rare earth concentrates, minesite rehabilitation, safe tailing dams, etc are all things that in theory can be dealt with.

It's not Mission Accomplished!! until they are actually dealt with though .. until then it's just toxic lead free to leach into water.

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#22
post #20
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the top of my head, cadmium and lead, low level radioactive waste from associated lithium extraction from spodumene concentrates, pools of acids as a result of rare earth processing, etc. Solar, wind, batteries etc are growing but as yet are only a small percentage of the energy produced by coal - as coal is phased out and replaced the waste from renewables will grow. To be absolutely clear, I am not anti renewabl…

> > What waste from solar and wind is not recyclable? > Of the top of my head, cadmium and lead, Lead isn't recyclable?

https://leadsmart.nsw.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/BHEL...

This is 1 lead mining region. This report would be enough to shut down uranium mining across an entire country if it was doing an equivalent amount of damage. And that is just the mining, not the dumping, where there will be further damage done.

But fortunately the damage lead does is done by chemical reactions rather than radiation so it is cool and we can handle it rationally.

People are crazy if they think any industrial process can be run without damaging the environment. The nuclear production chain may literally be the only place where we try.

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#23

Aren’t these temporary construction jobs? Which seems like the worst kind of jobs for a small town… infrastructure , retail, housing, etc is built for the huge influx of workers and after 5 years or whatever they go away, and only a relatively few workers remain for operation of the plant.

They could extend the project and build a final depot for radioactive waste. Jobs for the next hundred thousand years. Gosh, i hate the trend for NE. When will the public realize, that its the side effects of our waste products (like CO2) that cause us all the trouble? Or that we are depending on yet another finite resource? Why not a project for fully renewable energy sources and storage with less delicate waste? Wh…

Nuclear waste is dangerous.

Coal ash, tailings, hydrocarbon extraction byproducts; those are also dangerous. Look at cancer rates near refinery areas in Louisiana or Houston -- you might imagine a nuclear bomb went off in those areas based on the cancer rates.

Nuclear waste has the unique property that it is very easily detected. This is actually a good thing! It means we can isolate it, test for isolation, and stay away. The other upside is that there is less of it. Contrast that with something like the Kingston fly ash spill. There is not enough U-235 on earth to spill that much: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly.... That is a single event (with a death toll similar to Chernobyl!) The picture for semiconductor manufacturing or battery manufacturing is not perfect either.

Short sighted? Removing a zero carbon clean energy source from the table when decarbonization is urgently needed -- that is short sighted.

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could extend the project and build a final depot for radioactive waste. Jobs for the next hundred thousand years. Gosh, i hate the trend for NE. When will the public realize, that its the side effects of our waste products (like CO2) that cause us all the trouble? Or that we are depending on yet another finite resource? Why not a project for fully renewable energy sources and storage with less delicate waste? Wh…

Nuclear waste is dangerous. Coal ash, tailings, hydrocarbon extraction byproducts; those are also dangerous. Look at cancer rates near refinery areas in Louisiana or Houston -- you might imagine a nuclear bomb went off in those areas based on the cancer rates. Nuclear waste has the unique property that it is very easily detected. This is actually a good thing! It means we can isolate it, test for isolation, and stay…

"Clean" is the short sighted part, because waste does not only revolve around carbon. "Sustainable" is the only long term solution.

Your points seem to be correct, NE waste is less and better detectable but its also as long living like PFAS but much more dangerous compared to them.

As is said "i dont like the trend", not NE per se. This upcoming NE trend fosters an illusion, that competes with the with wind/solar power transition, which might not be the final but certainly is the better solution in terms of cost/waste/risk.

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#25
post #15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we held nuclear to a similar safety standard to the airline, coal or solar industry it'd probably be cheaper. > There’s no waste to worry about for thousands of years. The waste from solar and wind never decays. It is permanent. That is worse.

> if we held nuclear to a similar safety standard to the airline, coal or solar industry it'd probably be cheaper No it would be much more expensive. Chernobyl and Fukushima are estimated to cost over 1000 billion usd each, and your suggestion would cause similar accidents every 4-6 years.

> suggestion would cause similar accidents every 4-6 years

That seems like somewhat absurd speculation. Both of those events made future incidents significantly less likely. Also Chernobyl was totally avoidable and only happened because of extreme incompetence prevalent in the USSR.

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#26
post #16
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if we held nuclear to a similar safety standard to the airline, coal or solar industry it'd probably be cheaper No it would be much more expensive. Chernobyl and Fukushima are estimated to cost over 1000 billion usd each, and your suggestion would cause similar accidents every 4-6 years.

You might have heard the funny story about a nuclear contamination incident where the workers had to dig a big trench to clear out contaminated material, then filled the trench in with local soil ... that was naturally higher in radiation than the stuff removed. I'm not entirely happy with the premise that nobody has learned anything about plant design since 1970 when Fukushima & friends were designed. And it seems q…

>You might have heard the funny story about a nuclear contamination incident

Here is just one of many actually documented stories about nuclear contamination, none of them are particularly funny. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident

>I'm not entirely happy with the premise that nobody has learned anything about plant design since 1970

The problem isn't plant design. The problem is that the fuel and waste from any nuclear plant is very dangerous and humans are often very sloppy, ignorant and greedy. This problem remains even if a plant would be entirely fault tolerant.

>But what I'd really like to know is what exactly were the consequences if we just ignored the situation?

If we ignored Chernobyl and nobody sacrificed their lives to stop the fire, my understanding is that it would still be burning and Europe would be mostly a uninhabitable hellhole today, with millions dead, immense numbers of birth defects and and a large percentage of the population would get cancers before age 30.

Since it was stopped relatively quickly we have only had to deal with sanitation for 40+ years, in areas as remote as Lapland and Bavaria. If the fallout areas were untreated, food from those areas would be classified as carcinogenic for decades.

Some might think that Wyoming is far away, but a Chernobyl accident in Wyoming could devastate agriculture in Kansas, California, Canada - this can't be ignored.

Surely it would be better for Wyoming to build hydrogen plants, photovoltaic panels and such. It will deliver as stable energy as nuclear but cheaper and with comparably no risk.

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#27
post #26
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have heard the funny story about a nuclear contamination incident where the workers had to dig a big trench to clear out contaminated material, then filled the trench in with local soil ... that was naturally higher in radiation than the stuff removed. I'm not entirely happy with the premise that nobody has learned anything about plant design since 1970 when Fukushima & friends were designed. And it seems q…

>You might have heard the funny story about a nuclear contamination incident Here is just one of many actually documented stories about nuclear contamination, none of them are particularly funny. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident >I'm not entirely happy with the premise that nobody has learned anything about plant design since 1970 The problem isn't plant design. The problem is that the fuel and was…

Much to get through. So,

You've linked one of worlds worst nuclear disasters there. Nothing to do with nuclear power though, and it certainly didn't cause anywhere near a trillion dollars in damage.

> The problem is that the fuel and waste from any nuclear plant is very dangerous

It isn't that dangerous. We've been at this for 50 years. If anything interesting had happened regarding waste we'd have the regressives up in arms about it and never hear the end of it. I'm not saying no risk, but I am saying negligible. Plenty of nasty stuff out there, and one more heap doesn't need serious attention.

> If we ignored Chernobyl ...

(1) Ok, so put the fire out. That isn't a half-trillion dollars in costs though. Where is this trillion dollars coming from, and what is it protecting against?

(2) Everything causes cancer. Including, famously, a suit to have Starbucks coffee in California labelled as carcinogenic [0]. And coal dust causes cancer, which we've put up with for literal centuries. What are the actual risks are here? Carcinogens aren't a rare thing, a lot of people already die of cancer, because we're surrounded by them. A few more in exchange for the sort of upside nuclear promises is, observing the actual state of things, a good trade. So what are the real numbers you're talking?

At any time from 1970 to today, reducing standards to allow more nuclear development would cause a net reduction in carcinogens because coal dust is deadly. Probably nat gas too.

(3) Nobody is building plants like Chernobyl in this century. That design was from last century.

(4) Bonus points, where are you getting this from? Because a lot of the scary post-Chernobyl modelling was done on a Linear-No-Threshold model that is a good case study in people applying excessive safety to nuclear, assuming that it is much more hazardous than we have any evidence for.

> It will deliver as stable energy as nuclear but cheaper and with comparably no risk.

Nuclear would be cheaper if it was held to sane safety standards that are comparable to what we're putting up with literally right now. I've lived next to coal plants. That is worse for my health than if I had been living in Fukushima when the plant melted down. Nobody in my town was particularly worried about the risk though because that would be remarkably stupid.

[0] https://www.newsweek.com/heres-why-everything-gives-you-canc...

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#28
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we held nuclear to a similar safety standard to the airline, coal or solar industry it'd probably be cheaper. > There’s no waste to worry about for thousands of years. The waste from solar and wind never decays. It is permanent. That is worse.

> The waste from solar and wind never decays. It is permanent. That is worse. I’m not so sure I buy this argument. Nuclear waste is effectively permanent as it needs to be safely stored in large containers for as long as civilization has existed. Solar panels are made of what? Silicon and aluminum mostly? The aluminum can be recycled. I wonder if old silicon can be reused somehow. We will certainly find out.

Nuclear fuel can be reprocessed. Real waste should be stored for merely 300yrs

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#29
post #2

It does not say in the article but from looking at the project website, this plant is 5-10 years at minimum from completion and permitting, that's if there are no regulatory or environmental challenges. Given the onerous and lengthy process I am not optimistic this will ever come to fruition. https://www.terrapower.com/natrium-project-update/

No way this gets commercialized in 10 years. The NRC page [1] states that the Natrium project is in the preapplication phase. In the case of NuScale, the approval took 6 years from the application time, and that was a pressurized water reactor, that the NRC has plenty of experience with. Compared to that, the NRC has virtually zero experience with sodium cooled reactors; one can claim that the precursor of the NRC, the AEC had such experience, but probably no employee from those times is still alive, let alone currently employed.

So the pre-application, application and approval process will be one of learning as much for the NRC as for Terrapower. If they get it done in the next 10 years, that's a stunning achievement. And only after that Terrapower will start working on the actual commercial reactors.

This is a very long haul enterprise.

But if they get it done, this can change the nuclear industry. Russia already has 2 such reactors working, and this month they started burning fuel derived from nuclear waste in one of them. These reactors achieve a lot of things: no need for pressure vessel, can burn U-238, so basically the uranium reserves become unlimited, produce much less waste, and can even burn waste. The first of these is by far the most important, because it means they can be made for much cheaper.

[1] https://www.nrc.gov/reactors/new-reactors/advanced/who-were-...

Re: Nuclear Plant Could Bring 1,600 Jobs to Kemmerer, Wyoming

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The waste from solar and wind never decays. It is permanent. That is worse. I’m not so sure I buy this argument. Nuclear waste is effectively permanent as it needs to be safely stored in large containers for as long as civilization has existed. Solar panels are made of what? Silicon and aluminum mostly? The aluminum can be recycled. I wonder if old silicon can be reused somehow. We will certainly find out.

Nuclear fuel can be reprocessed. Real waste should be stored for merely 300yrs

Merely 300 years. Jesus. That’s 10 generations.
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