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iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

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Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#51

Post by crazygringo »

kmeisthax wrote: post #40

Note that if you opt for the EU compliant new business terms for iPhone, you will still be obligated to pay Core Technology Fees on all Apple platforms, even if those platforms do not allow sideloading. So your iPad apps now have install fees and you still have to pass app review.

Yeah but your App Store commission is significantly lower as a percentage. So you're still going to wind up paying less money if you're collecting amounts like €5 or €10 or more from customers.

In the cases where you'd come out worse, because your app is free or extremely low-cost like €1, then you shouldn't opt for the new business terms. You should use the current ones -- which show no indication of going away since they're what the rest of the world uses.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#52

Post by JoshTriplett »

jachee wrote: post #49
ivanmontillam wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that Europeans will eventually have a better experience with Apple than U.S. residents. It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

I’m a U.S. resident who’s eyeballs deep in the ecosystem… (well, I will be, come Friday…) and I feel much more valued by Apple than cattle. If there’s a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store on my device to have the privilege of buying their app, I’m simply not buying that app. I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in that.

And if that turns out to be the case, then it doesn't need to be enforced, as people will select accordingly. And then, the people who do want to run things that Apple won't permit in the app store (browsers/emulators/JITs/scripting/etc), or that aren't economically viable with a 30% cut, will have the option of doing so.

The existence of an option does not force you to choose that option.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#53

Post by makeitdouble »

rezonant wrote: post #25
sharkjacobs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is what correct? Is iPadOS a different platform than iOS? That's not an easy question to answer. It's a different OS, it has a different name, it runs on different devices, it has different features, it runs different apps. But iPads ran "iOS" for many years, and iPadOS was clearly just a rebranding of the iOS that ran on iPads. On the other hand, iOS (then iPhoneOS) was announced as a "compressed and streamlined" ve…

As sibling points out, it's about what the EU thinks. "iPadOS" runs iOS apps, and iOS apps can be full fledged "iPadOS" apps with a single binary. The distinction is a business distinction, not a technical one. There are strange tiny differences in what APIs are offered, but the same is true of two Windows computers, for example, for one that has a DirectX capable graphics card and one that does not.

I had the same reaction at first. It looks like and probably is an obvious tactic to evade the DMA.

But then, if we look at Debian and Ubuntu for instance, we'd agree they're different even if there will be compatibility.

I think Apple should be allowed to set each of their stores and OSes as separate but compatible entities. And I also think scrutiny should be applied not on an OS base but on a more generic "platform" or "ecosystem" base. I suppose that's where the EU regulators are ropping in iPadOS even if it doesn't fit the bill strictly speaking.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#54

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

crazygringo wrote: post #51
kmeisthax wrote: post #40

Note that if you opt for the EU compliant new business terms for iPhone, you will still be obligated to pay Core Technology Fees on all Apple platforms, even if those platforms do not allow sideloading. So your iPad apps now have install fees and you still have to pass app review.

Yeah but your App Store commission is significantly lower as a percentage. So you're still going to wind up paying less money if you're collecting amounts like €5 or €10 or more from customers. In the cases where you'd come out worse, because your app is free or extremely low-cost like €1, then you shouldn't opt for the new business terms. You should use the current ones -- which show no indication of going away sinc…

> The point is that you've got a choice.

Supposing I want to release a free, personal hobby project, app that uses some private APIs in iOS, to solve some long-standing usability or feature-gap within iOS, then no, I don't have a choice: I don't have an option at all: I can't release it in the Apple-run iOS App Store becuase it uses Private APIs, and I can't release it in a third-party App Store as a free app because I can't afford the "Core Technology" fee (despite paying my $99 annual fee to Apple, which they said (back in 2008) pays for the platform, SDK+DX) - that leaves me only with Cydia as my only option and a significantly reduced audience.

-----

Actually, this whole debacle has me wondering - does this mean that Apple thinks they have the right to shakedown developers in the Cydia ecosystem for their "Core Technology" fees too? If so, it's going to be hilarious to watch them try to actually do that; and because they'll be unsuccessful, does that mean that other developers (using something-other-than-Cydia) can tell Apple to pound-sand as they have no moral-right to the rent they're seeking?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#55

Post by tomxor »

jachee wrote: post #49
ivanmontillam wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that Europeans will eventually have a better experience with Apple than U.S. residents. It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

I’m a U.S. resident who’s eyeballs deep in the ecosystem… (well, I will be, come Friday…) and I feel much more valued by Apple than cattle. If there’s a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store on my device to have the privilege of buying their app, I’m simply not buying that app. I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in that.

> a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store [...] I’m simply not buying that app.

Why is it so hard to understand that market pressure will affect you indirectly.

Monopolies are harmful to even those who will never step outside Apple's walled garden... The mere threat from the EU, and anti-trust hearings in the US has already benefitted you by reducing the commission from 30% to 17% for apps with revenue under $1M.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#56

Post by goosedragons »

lapcat wrote: post #37
goosedragons wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And March of 2019 Spotify filed a complaint with the European Commission over Apple's practices. https://newsroom.spotify.com/2019-03-13/consumers-and-innova... And "iPadOS" was and still is basically just a name change. Even from day 1 iPads had a different set of features.

That was March 13. WWDC 2019 was June 3. Do you seriously think that Apple magically switched everything to iPadOS in 2 months? And why? How exactly did iPadOS even help with the Spotify complaint?

Sure, why not? How hard is it to change "iOS" to "iPadOS"? And to hedge their bets. It's a mostly meaningless change that has let them claim it's distinct from iOS. They could tell where the winds were blowing.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#57

Post by dehrmann »

Apple's really been acting in bad faith with moves like this and the 27% fee on external payments. Regulators took these actions for a reason, and Apple's doing its best to just barely comply, at the cost of bringing even more attention to itself.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#58

Post by hayst4ck »

ivanmontillam wrote: post #32
mrtksn wrote: post #20

For anyone interested, EU has started an investigation on iPadOS despite not meeting the threshold: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_... The investigation should be completed within 12 months.

The funny thing is that Europeans will eventually have a better experience with Apple than U.S. residents. It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

> Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

How do you feel apple is treating their customers like cattle?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#59

Post by huytersd »

ivanmontillam wrote: post #32
mrtksn wrote: post #20

For anyone interested, EU has started an investigation on iPadOS despite not meeting the threshold: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_... The investigation should be completed within 12 months.

The funny thing is that Europeans will eventually have a better experience with Apple than U.S. residents. It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

We’ll see. I feel like it’s going to be a good Petri dish to see how shitty the third party stuff makes the Apple ecosystem.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#60

Post by davely »

dmart wrote: post #3

Suddenly it makes a lot more sense why Apple made a big deal about iPadOS being its own separate OS, even though the differences are so minimal.

I say this as a huge Apple fan: the iPad strategy is ridiculously frustrating (for my purposes).

The crux of the issue is that the latest Pros have one of the most awesome and powerful processors on the market for traditional computing purposes, but all that power is locked behind a toy OS that you can’t do much with.

There are few meaningful differences in the underlying hardware between this and a MacBook Air, but I can take my MBA anywhere to code, work offline, easily multitask by switching between numerous project windows, install all sorts of open source software as needed, etc.

With the iPad, I can watch some videos, and download some popular games with gacha mechanics. Cool?

I picked up a cheap refurbed Surface Pro X. While no means perfect, having an actual usable OS that I can do whatever I want with is so nice. Come on, Apple. Just let us run MacOS on these things.

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