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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#811

Post by kilolima »

amluto wrote: post #762
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

A major problem is that the Gazan people have very legitimate problems with Israel, and this leads to a situation in which enough of them become militant to cause serious problems. Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.

For every Israeli Jewish civilian, there is an equivalent Palestine refugee living in a camp (~7mil). Israeli can only exist as a Jewish majority state as long as the original inhabitants remain displaced. So the Gazans are probably not going to be pro-Israeli any time soon.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#812

Post by FpUser »

nradov wrote: post #359
worik wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True Nation states are often immoral and hypocritical The outrage from the USA at the invasion of Ukraine, when the invasion of Iraq is a crime of the same magnitude - both dreadful stains on humanity Most recently the international support for the actions of the IDF whilst condemning Russian actions in Ukraine SA is just normal in this regard

From a narrow, legalistic perspective Iraq was in material breach of UN Security Council Resolution 1441 in 2003 and so the invasion was justified on that basis. I am not arguing that the invasion was right (or even remotely a good idea), just that it was never firmly established as illegal under any treaty in force at the time. By contrast, there was never even a fig leaf of a legal justification for Russia's invasi…

>"so the invasion was justified on that basis"

Bullshit. There was nothing in the resolution that called for war. The most it had said was in tune of - you must comply and if you don't we will report you. No particular enforcement.

the resolution is here - https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N02/682/26/PDF...

>"it was never firmly established as illegal"

Really? It was an act of aggression. It is illegal by definition unless the UN had explicitly decided otherwise which I believe it did not.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#813

Post by brighteyes »

shakil wrote: post #804
Qem wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the people that died on October 7, one important detail is evidence surfaced it appears a sizeable fraction was killed due to Israeli military attacking militants and hostages without distinction, to avoid capture, following the so called Hannibal directive: https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hann... https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaga... https://en.m.wikipedia.…

Why is this flagged/down voted? Its just a plain statement of fact, supported by credible sources and references. Here's some more references if people think this didn't happen. The IDF attacked and fired on the Nova festival goers with Apache helicopters [1], an Israeli tank fired shells at Kibbutz Be'eri killing hostages and children, and stories of eight babies killed at the kibbutz have been proven to be false, a…

It is downvoted because it said "sizable fraction", which is a conspiracy theory.

It is true that there were a few incidents, but they only account for a very small fraction of the death toll.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#814

Post by awb »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #647
svara wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That France and Germany are now good neighbors is a miracle. It's possible because wise humans on both sides realized that the law of retaliation would cause a never ending cycle. I worry that this sort of wisdom might be in short supply these days.

> That France and Germany are now good neighbors is a miracle. It was not because of wise humans as if humans suddenly learned wisdom. It was because they both realized instead of being empires acquiring territory, they had instead been turned into players between the US and the Soviet Union who were both much stronger than either of them and that war would end up completely devastating both of them without any benef…

A few things emerged after WWII that probably helped keep the peace:

* democracy

* capitalism

* US military presence

* common European allies

* a shared dislike of communism

* a need to focus internally to rebuild destroyed infrastructure

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#815

Post by shakil »

Aunche wrote: post #245
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

> I am so deeply disappointed in the Biden administration here. What do you expect him to do? With or without any assistance, Israel has more than enough weapons completely annihilate Gaza. Don't forget that they likely have nuclear capabilities. Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint and this restraint is the first thing to go if Israel feels like it's being backed into a corner.

All the US has to do is: nothing. Stop sending over tank shells [1], Fighter jets and attack helicopters [2], deploying aircraft carriers [3] and stop vetoing UN Security Council resolutions trying to impose a ceasefire [4]

1. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/biden-admini... 2. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-25/ty-article/.p... 3. https://www.voanews.com/a/us-aircraft-carrier-to-remain-in-m... 4. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-resolution...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#816

Post by Gunnerhead »

pgeorgi wrote: post #508
SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hostages are undesireable for Israel, as earlier they die/be killed the lesser leverage hamas will have. Besides, they will all be dangerous to official narrative, as they seem to have been treated ok by the militants.

You mean they were raped ok by the militants? https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/there-wasnt-a-moment-freed-h...

Not this claim in particular, but existing claims of rape allegations have been debunked:

https://x.com/jonathan_k_cook/status/1748390405173842099?s=4...

Meanwhile, Josh Paul, a former US State Department official, detailed how a 13 year old kid was raped in an Israeli prison and “The State Department's inquiry into the case resulted in Israeli officials shutting down the charity involved in bringing the case to light.”

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231205-resigned-us-state...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#817

Post by rsoto2 »

brighteyes wrote: post #813
shakil wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this flagged/down voted? Its just a plain statement of fact, supported by credible sources and references. Here's some more references if people think this didn't happen. The IDF attacked and fired on the Nova festival goers with Apache helicopters [1], an Israeli tank fired shells at Kibbutz Be'eri killing hostages and children, and stories of eight babies killed at the kibbutz have been proven to be false, a…

It is downvoted because it said "sizable fraction", which is a conspiracy theory. It is true that there were a few incidents, but they only account for a very small fraction of the death toll.

The report that I saw said that there were 70 vehicles completely destroyed by RPG or Helicopter and the Israeli military did not go into specifics(although they undoubtedly have more data about the event than they have released)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#818

Post by Gunnerhead »

mkoubaa wrote: post #725
vcryan wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anyone who supports Hamas? I think most people just want Palestinians to live free.

I keep hearing that they exist, but I've yet to encounter anyone that is pro Hamas

I’m also not sure why SA would want to “gain brownie points from the people who support Hamas”. Wouldn’t they want to earn brownie points from those who support Israel, like the US, who they’d benefit more from?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#819

Post by rsoto2 »

mrangle wrote: post #718

The primary problem was always that there are too many parties who have an interest in the existence of Hamas. Put differently, there are too many parties with an interest in using the Palestinians as pawns. Leaving aside the views of any specific Palestinian. As no serious person can dispute the ease of radicalizing destitute people without educations and with PTSD. As long as this is the case, the Palestinians, on…

The primary problem has been a brutal occupation, apartheid state, and blockade

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#820

Post by runarberg »

teleforce wrote: post #805

Those who want to know the proper history and context of the current conflict, you really owe it to yourself to read this well researched book by Prof Rashid Khalidi, The Hundred Years' War on Palestine [1]. In his latest book he even mentioned Israel - Palestinian latest major war (fifth war in chronological order) in the form of many years of blockade on the people of Gaza. The fact that this book was published sev…

And a recent interview on the same author: https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/20/this_is_a_colonial_w...
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