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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe 695 Israeli civilians, 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139? They're all numbers from the Israeli government. Weird how only disputing the Hamas numbers as biased is a talking point.

It is way easier to verify those numbers though, there is an actual list of names and journalists can (and have) talk to the families etc.

True, verifying 695 deaths is easier than 30 times that number. Also convenient then that journalists are allowed to safely operate there.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#362
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest "to avoid war with Russia" was how the rest of that headline went, along with two quotes about how Russia said such an arrest would be considered an act of war. While I would welcome Putin's arrest, I can't exactly fault South Africa for saying they'd rather not go to war .

They can avoid arresting Putin by not allowing a plane with Putin to land in South Africa.

Well it didn't. Putin never ended up going there, he attended the BRICS summit remotely.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#363

[flagged]

Please share your sources

Like the parent says, these have all been widely reported on. I think we have to come into this conversation with a base level of the events that are going on before commenting.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#364
post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

China believes in soft power. So I doubt they'd come in guns blazing to rescue Gaza.

However, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by brokering some kind of peace using their supply chain supremacy.

Meanwhile US looks more and more like a paper tiger because they can't stop Yemen from blockading Israeli shipments and also refusing to do the one thing that would resolve the shipping issues: force Israel to the table for a ceasefire.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#365
post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

I think its extremely unlikely that china will go to war with israel. That would be an extremely bloody conflict for almost no benefit to china.

Additionally china's military currently has big corruption problems (e.g. the missle fuel water controversy). I doubt china really wants to put their reputation on the line until they sort that out, especially given what happened to russia in ukraine.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#366
post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

Trump wouldn't intensify the genocide. Not just because Israel currently has carte blanche to do what it wants, but also because of personal animosity with Netanyahu.

Netanyahu and Trump been best friends since the '80s. Netanyahu was even friends with Trump's dad.

I wouldn't put too much stock in any kayfabe between them.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#367

ICJ didn't reach any conclusions or positions except that IDF needs to be careful. No call for a ceasefire. I'm curious what people in Tel Aviv see in media. In America, it's wall-to-wall "police say"-like IDF clips and Bill Maher condemnation, dehumanization, and equivocating Palestine supporters with Hamas terrorists. The talking heads cheerfully greet Netanyahu.

> In America, it's wall-to-wall "police say"-like IDF clips and Bill Maher condemnation, dehumanization, and equivocating Palestine supporters with Hamas terrorists. The talking heads cheerfully greet Netanyahu.

As someone who also consumes US news, this does not describe what I’ve seen.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#368
post #133
post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

Barak is no fan of the current Israeli government. And they often attacked him publicly and organized demonstrations around his home. They truly sent the best international law expert the country has to offer

Not exactly. They sent the guy who controls the local judiciary because not doing so would be impossible due to his immense political power. The Israeli judiciary is unique in nominating itself and having given itself the power to cancel any law or demand any changes to laws/policy on any arbitrary basis; since this state of affairs is backed up by a sufficient number of powerful institutions, it is effectively impossible to challenge.

Barak ruling to resupply the enemy (it is widely documented that "humanitarian aid" goes first and foremost to Hamas) in an international court is entirely consistent with his lifelong tendency to gradually reduce Israeli independence and voters' impact on policy and to increase Israeli compliance to the policy of outside parties, first and foremost the US. (Resupplying the enemy was required by the US from the start. It is interesting to see other examples where civilians are prevented by the international community to leave the area of hostilities and instead they are supposed to be provided with resources in this area where the monopoly on the use of force belongs to one of the sides in the conflict.)

While the exact requirements placed on Israel by larger powers are somewhat unique, having highly influential people in the country effectively work in the interest of larger powers is a common condition for smaller powers. In this Barak is similar to many other high-profile people and organizations in many other countries enjoying limited sovereignty at best.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#369
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other international conflicts has China resolved? The current Chinese state seems to be much better at fostering conflict (I.e. the ongoing Korean War) than resolving it.

So far, not much. Gaza is a good place to start. China wants more influence in the Middle East, and already owns or operates a large number of ports outside China.[1] Israel blockades the existing ports of Gaza. A China-run port in Gaza, protected by the PLAN, is a possibility. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/china-...

> Gaza is a good place to start.

This made me chuckle :-) "Let's dip our toes into solving international conflicts with an easy one, like the Israeli / Palestine conflict!"

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that even possible procedurally? the preliminary hearing is done. They are meeting in feb to discuss the report on the things ordered, but i dont think they can just randomly make more orders at that point that aren't related to the granted orders. [Ianal]

From my understanding, if Israel doesn't show that they're able to reduce civilian deaths, they can grant South Africa's ask on the case which (from my understanding) is effectively ordering Israel to stop the attacks, and asking the world to help enforce it.

The court didn't even order them to reduce civilian deaths.

They do have to submit a report on their implementation of the orders, but reducing civilian deaths wasn't on the list of things they had to report on.

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