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Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

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Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least as I see my colleagues who buy special keyboards to type code faster and still being hellishly unproductive, deleting and rewriting while I prefer to think before typing and have a solution that works when I type it in instead of iterating over solutions that cannot work in the first place. When I type it's fast, I just don't do it so much compared to my peers, but I am more productive delivering working cod…

People buy special keyboards because they enjoy using them, not because they’re faster to type on.

What baffles me is that some people aren't willing to buy nice peripherals.

I don't know about anybody else, but I spend 8-18 hours a day attached to a mouse and keyboard. I'm not going to use one that doesn't feel good to me.

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#152
post #43

> "Whether written using a fountain pen or typewriter, Dijkstra’s technical reports were composed at a speed of around three words per minute. “The rest of the time,” he remarked, “is taken up by thinking.”9 For Dijkstra, writing and thinking blended into one activity. When preparing a new EWD, he always sought to produce the final version from the outset." > "He also never purchased a computer. Eventually, in the la…

There’s no other way to do it for this type of a brain. I know because I have the same type of brain. I spend 90% of my time formulating descriptions of the problem and the desired end state Hallucinating futures where the state of the world is in a state that I either wanted to be or that somebody’s asking me to build Once you know your final end state, then you need to evaluate the current state of the things that…

Interesting. I try to do something like this, but way simpler and my productivity is low right now. Maybe more practice will help. Would you say you're usually good at doing this and getting results?

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#153
post #43

> "Whether written using a fountain pen or typewriter, Dijkstra’s technical reports were composed at a speed of around three words per minute. “The rest of the time,” he remarked, “is taken up by thinking.”9 For Dijkstra, writing and thinking blended into one activity. When preparing a new EWD, he always sought to produce the final version from the outset." > "He also never purchased a computer. Eventually, in the la…

I am rather autistic and this is how I think, toosies. 90-95% of my time working on a project is just sitting, staring into space, completely unaware of the world around me. I think it's because while you can "explore the field" with compute, as it were, the informational shapes of whatever the problem is at hand are always there, and usually they are _much_ more simple than people seem to let on, IMPO.

I'm not really sure how to describe it for me, as I have partial aphantasia, and a kind of weird shape-synesthesisa which also blends with my sensibilities around physical taste. It can really only be described as "feeling" a shape, where a shape represents some quantity of information for a topic, if it were the case that I'm not using receptors in my hands to touch something, but instead, it's the shape feeling its own shape relative to other shapes, and it's not as much a touch-like sensation as a visceral, semi-intuitive experience of the information of whatever that shape-object-whatever represents.

I do not think that thinking in this way was fully formed from a young age (i.e. it used to be an extremely active story-based imagination), it seems to have developed in some manner as an (informationally) dissociative coping mechanism because my autism is strong enough that the world does not stop overstimulating me. When I am in this headspace, I am generally unaware of sensory input, there is only me, and the (generally mathematical) "problem" at hand. Sometimes I can go for hours, working on a problem, moving shapes and concepts around, and fitting them together in a way that explains more while taking less information to do so. This can be both a gift and a hindrance.

I generally have to limit my budget for sensory stimulation and for 'new' things because my brain is so sensitive to information. This generally is more of a disability than a help, on the whole, though it is nice to be able to solve problems in the way that I do, that is one comfort to me.

I do have a tendency to want to fit things in my brain before thinking about them, but the 'onboarding' process can take a while. I used to get in trouble all the time as a kid before this sense by trying to do mental math all of the time, I would sit, think for a long time about a problem, write an answer down, and move on. Unfortunately, instead of being encouraged, it was something I got punished for (I was homeschooled), and there wasn't much in the way of what I would consider appropriate adaptivity in that regard.

Problems are fun, and the hardest part about them I think is that we are generally crap at phrasing them and looking for solutions, most of my work seems to just be cutting through the cruft of whatever trends-du-jour or symbolic obfuscation shenanigans are going on for a given topic. Once you sort out the structure of a given mathematical problem, the answer seems to fall into place well, and one does not always need compute for that.

So, all of that to say, each person thinks and processes things in a different way, and if you're into information theory, then one might say the kl divergence (in a manner of speaking) between how you encode and solve problems might be very high with djikstra's methods of thinking! It depends upon what unique strengths and weaknesses you have, and that can take years to find whichever special problem solving mode fits best to your sensibilities and gifts. For example, I have significant trouble around symbols that have potentially multiple meanings (like, as is often the case with many formal mathematical definitions), and since those take a disproportionate amount of "processing time" for me, my problem solving methods have evolved to replace and/or avoid them unless necessary. That is likely a silly solution for many people!

So, while you may not entirely fit Djikstra's natural proclivities, there might be elements that fit you. But whatever fits you best as a problem-solving technique is likely, frustratingly, and beautifully, entirely unique and specific to you. <3 :'))))

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#154
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really any faster on average? Sure I can type 60 wpm (I haven't measured, but this is a reasonable speed for anyone to obtain with a little practice, maybe I'm only 40, or I might even get to 100), but that is in typing situations where I'm not having to think. If your job is to enter some document into a word processor (a human OCR), or transcribe a recording (human speech to text) then typing speed is your…

I've never measured my thinking speed before. This measurement is intriguing. I feel that speed of thinking will be inversely proportional to the quality of content we write. Also, even if I can think fast and write quickly, I might have to go back and make amendments which can reduce my average thinking speed.

Linguists have noted that while some people talk faster than others - and some languages/cultures speak faster than others. However this is only a measure of word count, where people talk faster they are not actually saying more, they are just using more words to say it. (note that I could have eliminated "just" in the above sentence - to my ear it seems needed, but the sentence doesn't change meaning without it)

Human thought speed seems to be a reflection on how fast you need to think for normal conversations. Thus orders like "run" or "jump" are likely to be fast as if you need to tell someone to escape a lion speed is important. While if you are planning a hunt you are allowed a lot more time to get details right. Engineering often is a very slow activity as you need to think about a lot of details but you have time. Typing a message like this I want to be fast enough to follow my thought speed which is much faster (I won't claim to type this fast, but I get close and can believe with more practice I would be this fast)

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know the last one. That explains why Alan Kay spent a few minutes of one of his OOPSLA talks roasting Dijkstra[0] "I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras" Which, I dunno, feels kind of funny coming from him of all people. https://youtu.be/oKg1hTOQXoY?t=342

See https://medium.com/@acidflask/this-guys-arrogance-takes-your...

Thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed reading it. It'd be worth a top-level post (hint) - there's lots in it to discuss without side-tracking this thread.

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bold claim, do you have any evidence to back that up with? To be clear, I agree that it could be a reason, along with a multitude of others. I think that discerning which is the most substantial reason (if any such exist) is hard if not impossible.

I don't, I just have the feelings and impressions of various programmers, which is anecdata. I think the pattern that emerges is that the popular languages I listed are multi-discipline, they can be adapted to whichever paradigm you prefer, even if it's a little cumbersome, and over time they adopt the key features of other languages, while retaining their existing benefits. In other words... you can get the best fea…

> you can get the best features of Haskell in Python

Haskell's best features relative to more mainstream languages are HM-style type inference, higher-kinded types, and typeclasses - none of which are possible in a language without real static types.

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#158
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 WPM really shook me as well. Today we complain about not having enough time to work on our projects, but back in the good old days, as successful as Dijkstra was, got time to spend 3 WPM and still produced close to 7k articles! Astonishing.

Are you really any faster on average? Sure I can type 60 wpm (I haven't measured, but this is a reasonable speed for anyone to obtain with a little practice, maybe I'm only 40, or I might even get to 100), but that is in typing situations where I'm not having to think. If your job is to enter some document into a word processor (a human OCR), or transcribe a recording (human speech to text) then typing speed is your…

Back when I worked at an office my coworker commented to me that he could always tell when I was coding vs corresponding.

When corresponding, I type at around 120 wpm. When coding, it's got to be closer to 5 or 10. But I really like this idea that it would be useful to push that number lower (while still focusing on the task at hand).

Thing is, I got into this field because I really enjoy interacting with computers via keyboard. It's super satisfying to punch some buttons and make things happen. This is what I love about vim: right off the bat, a single button press feels like it does a lot. Then you punch a whole bunch of buttons to make a new button make something happen. Nevermind that it doesn't achieve product goals. I'm here for the button pressing, and for the creating of new buttons to be pressed.

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So can you tell me which programming paradigm actually solves these problems that OOP has? And also, can you give me a huge non-OOP codebase that shows in practice how it is better than the potential OOP implementation?

Paradigms don’t solve each other’s problems. They’re just another approach that may be better in specific contexts and you can even mix them. Although today, some languages is veering towards using structs and the like for data models and classes as logic containers (swift, kotlin). As for huge codebases, everyone knows that line of codes does not equal quality.

So basically, OOP is still the best for big iterative projects?

Re: Edsger Dijkstra carried computer science on his shoulders (2020)

#160

Ok, the first thought reading the title was "ah, surely this is about Dijkstras." The immediate second thought that came was the famous quote “I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras”, from Alan Kay should I believe https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/69528-i-don-t-know-how-many...

Apparently Alan Kay knew Dijkstra and was meant as a joke rather than some big insult.
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