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Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

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Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#131
post #120

The most interesting thing to me about each of these little episodes is how Linus, by creating the brilliant Linux kernel, is lauded as a sort-of-oracle when giving his opinion about very non-kernel things. I quite like the simple, opinionated approach to Gnome and Unity but my opinion (and others who may agree with me) matters somehow less because I didn't create this great thing that has nothing to do with UI desig…

You are making some huge assumptions about how people form their own opinions and then using those assumptions to invalidate those of us who disagree with your view. Stop.

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Aren't webapps isolated? Funneled through a strict paradigm? And also at the other end of a comparatively slow link? The idea of a general purpose computer as it exists in the current desktop form must be put aside. We can't head to a future of…

And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Playing Devil's advocate, Google Drive has an API for webapps to access the user's files (with permissions only to files created by the app itself or that the user specifically opens). The webapp chooses the MIMEtypes it can open and then the u…

> Uh, Android does have sandboxing and isolation, and apps can only access your data if you specifically allow them to.

Wrong; The filesystem is FAT32, and has no additional permissions beyond a "read only" bit. Any data that's there can be accessed by apps, as things stand.

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but compare your pipe speed today with your pipe speed ten years ago. I don't think that it's out of the realm of possibility that we will begin to see devices with no local storage within three years. Take Google Music, for instance. You can have 200 GB of music "on your phone", even though none of it is actually stored on your phone.

> Sure, but compare your pipe speed today with your pipe speed ten years ago. Actually, things haven't improved much in this department for the vast majority of Americans.

It hasn't increased nearly as much as my HDD speed.

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#134
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you were 100% correct, hard drives aren't going anywhere. Browser cache is around 1GB and web developers are itching for vast landscapes of local storage systems. And where do you expect the operating system and marvelous web stack where all these things are created to reside? Burned in EEPROM? I think the consumer already can't really differentiate between what is local or over the internet, they don't know…

>But if what you say is right, the pendulum, at the consumer level, will soon swing back the other way the first time that someone can't access the "cloud" on a trip or forgets to pay their "cloud access bill" (phone/internet whatever) and then gets locked out of ... well, everything. One day the idea that you don't have internet access will be just as silly as saying you don't have electricity. Its in the very infan…

"One day the idea that you don't have internet access will be just as silly as saying you don't have electricity."

Much of the world lives with unreliable or intermittent electrical power, and likewise unreliable or intermittent internet service.

Also with mobile devices you're talking wireless bandwidth which is shared by everyone in a given area. The combination of crowds and streaming media is not trivial to engineer for. There are some promising technologies (MIMO, etc) but I don't believe any of them remove this fundamental scaling.

Local cache will continue to be important. What will be lost is the requirement to manage which device your shit is on.

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#135

I think a lot of people are missing the point of what Linus is saying somewhat. He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop. If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users and power users/technophiles (like Linus) and get…

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue for. You seem to want an integrated way of accessing remote resources (a la SMB but for extremely remote resources), but then you seem to be arguing in favour of hiding the directory hierarchy entirely (forgive me if I'm mistaken here).

In regards to remote resources, currently there are various FUSE plugins which can present remote resources in the filesystem (e.g. flickrfs). These are of course issues with the abstraction (how do we represent tags in a hierarchy?), but the use of these plugins is mostly transparent to the user (ignoring performance). It's certainly possible to build a layer atop of these that would integrate better with the system (e.g. add a Facebook selection to the open dialog).

You also seem to want to conflate applications with the data they manage. For a large number of users this is fine (iTunes is already their music, IE is the internet, etc), but for many others this is problematic (how do you manage moving data between these applications without a common intermediary. consider scanning an image, touching it up, then including it in a document - where do the original and altered versions live, how are they accessed by applications?).

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#136

I think a lot of people are missing the point of what Linus is saying somewhat. He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop. If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users and power users/technophiles (like Linus) and get…

He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop.

If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users... [they can] simply eat everyone elses lunch.

He also addresses the elephant in the room that the major Linux UI pushes that consciously and grandly targeted those goals were grand steps backwards. That the things the UI prognosticators think users want, like abstraction and simplification, alienated real Linux users like Linus. That normal users missed features the UI cognoscenti banished as "too confusing," such as "easy mouse configurability for things like how to launch applications."

When you talk about abstraction, metaphors, making the filesystem invisible to users, and (most telling of all) appealing to "casual users" it sounds like more of the same talk that we've had for many years now. The more grand and self-conscious the community gets about user interfaces, and the more they target non-techie users, the less useful the desktop environments become for their actual users. That missing configurability that Linus laments, which was sacrificed for the sake of "casual" users -- did we really attract a bunch of casual users? Did we eat anyone's lunch, take market share from OSX or Windows? Or did we just make our desktop environments less usable for the people who actually use them?

Linus says GNOME was "useless" without that configurability, and that this new device might be usable as a laptop if it had a terminal and a development environment. That doesn't sound like a call for Linux environments to appeal to "casual" users. I don't think Linus is asking for even more simplifications to get in the way of his usage, like abstracting away the filesystem.

The elephant in the room is that Linux desktop environments did a better job of giving Linux users what they wanted when that's all they tried to do. Trying to give us what we didn't know we wanted has been a failure. Targeting non-techie users has gained us nothing that we didn't already want for ourselves. It's time for the community to get off its high horse about UIs and go back to what it's good at, which is humbly (and very successfully) catering to its own needs. And nobody should feel ashamed of creating or using an operating system that never eats Apple's or Microsoft's lunch (isn't that such a ten years ago obsession?)

(P.S. You know what's good at abstracting away the filesystem when and how it's appropriate? Applications.)

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#137

I think a lot of people are missing the point of what Linus is saying somewhat. He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop. If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users and power users/technophiles (like Linus) and get…

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue for. You seem to want an integrated way of accessing remote resources (a la SMB but for extremely remote resources), but then you seem to be arguing in favour of hiding the directory hierarchy entirely (forgive me if I'm mistaken here). In regards to remote resources, currently there are various FUSE plugins which can present remote resources in the filesystem (e.g. flic…

FUSE plugins such as the ones you mentioned could be a fine enabling technology for this or at least a stepping stone. As you suggested, tags might not cleanly fit into the hierachical system, so perhaps a simple tree hierarchy is not the way to go for organisation of data at all. How we actually map things into the file system is a difficult question since there will need to be some common interface at some level. This could be a relational system or key/value store or something more like a graph perhaps.

Conflating data with applications is an interesting issue. On the one hand I feel that there may be a move towards this, for example it would be advantageous to (say) Apple for every photo you took on your iphone to be tied into the iCloud ecosystem never to escape.

On the other hand , storage is such a commodity that there's no reason that you couldn't hold your data where you want but hook into the functionality of a particular application to organise it.

For example maybe you use gmail to look through your archives of old emails that you had from a previous provider that are stored on your HDD. Spotify already does something like this with it's local music functionality.

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#138

I think a lot of people are missing the point of what Linus is saying somewhat. He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop. If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users and power users/technophiles (like Linus) and get…

I have a feeling Google will announce some kind of merger of ChromeOS and Android for Android 5.0 at Google I/O, or at least they will announce porting NativeClient to Android.

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#139
post #136

I think a lot of people are missing the point of what Linus is saying somewhat. He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop. If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users and power users/technophiles (like Linus) and get…

He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks like a compelling , easy to use desktop. If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs of casual users... [they can] simply eat everyone elses lunch. He also addresses the elephant in the room that the major Linux UI pushes that cons…

I kind of read it as "look at this, chrome book was designed for the most casual of casual users in mind and it's still more useful to programmers than gnome3"

I agree that applications are good at abstracting away the filesystem which is why I would argue for a lighter weight OS (which I presume chrome OS is).

Re: Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI

#140
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Playing Devil's advocate, Google Drive has an API for webapps to access the user's files (with permissions only to files created by the app itself or that the user specifically opens). The webapp chooses the MIMEtypes it can open and then the u…

> Uh, Android does have sandboxing and isolation, and apps can only access your data if you specifically allow them to. Wrong; The filesystem is FAT32, and has no additional permissions beyond a "read only" bit. Any data that's there can be accessed by apps, as things stand.

No. Android uses Ext4 since Gingerbread, and before it used YAFFS:

http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/12/ext4-filesys...

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