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Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#331

Post by fileoffset »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #59

Another armchair idea, could they have been used to detect coin clipping? It seems so easy to test that I feel the idea must have some readily apparent flaw.

I thought the same, that it could be used to either mint new coins or test existing coins were the correct dimensions.

My next thought was that each side held a face-plate, maybe painted wood, that could be pressed in to the face, the knobs would help there. The holes underneath the panels could have been used to just make it weigh less, which could explain the differences in hole sizes found.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#332

Post by emmelaich »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #38
mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

That theory works for me. Making a wooden hammer is a typical first project for the hand-tool woodworker — so perhaps the metal smith had a similar hello world. My first thought was that the thing was some kind of "hub" for ropes used perhaps in some tent design. I was imagining rope loops passing through the holes and then looped over a stud on the other side. But the article says there are no signs of wear and so n…

My thought was also to tents but used as a top point for wooden posts to enter / go through.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#334

Post by boomboomsubban »

fileoffset wrote: post #331
boomboomsubban wrote: post #59

Another armchair idea, could they have been used to detect coin clipping? It seems so easy to test that I feel the idea must have some readily apparent flaw.

I thought the same, that it could be used to either mint new coins or test existing coins were the correct dimensions. My next thought was that each side held a face-plate, maybe painted wood, that could be pressed in to the face, the knobs would help there. The holes underneath the panels could have been used to just make it weigh less, which could explain the differences in hole sizes found.

>which could explain the differences in hole sizes found

There were multiple denominations of Roman coins, and I assume some variance in size at each mint over the centuries. That could explain why each hole is a different size, and why the sizes aren't uniform between each one found.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#335

Post by Geee »

tarikjn wrote: post #189
mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

The equivalent today would be 3Dbenchy boats -- "we found an identical boat toy design in multiple sites made of different plastic materials, colors and sizes. It is spread universally around the World cities, found in sites of crafts, leading us to believe it is an idol of a new 21st century religion predominant among workers of the arts and crafts"

It might also be considered as a proof of very small humans who were known for sailing in their small boats.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#336

Post by s_m_t »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #275
cubefox wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, that's the other good point. Really they are parts of the more general incoherency: "My religion is correct, while all the other religions, current or from the past, are mere superstition."

Then there's my favorite, Pascal's Wager: "Why not accept my particular God? What do you have to lose?" Advocates of the Wager never seem to consider what Zeus's opinion might be.

Why would Zeus care? The greek afterlife is a sort of pointless outcome to Pascal's wager so it isn't even worth factoring in.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#337

Post by nemo »

etrautmann wrote: post #67
mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

I’m not sure why there’s always so much focus on purpose. People build objects of geometric fascination as art objects all the time. I agree with you that there need not be any religious significance here.

>why does it always have to be a religious object if an object doesn't have a clear and distinct purpose attached to it.

Worth looking at how the Romans themselves thought. They were incredibly superstitious, overbearingly and obsessively religious (this is Roman Catholicism's roots), they believed in magic and spirits, constantly consulted oracles, augury, and other signs to make important decisions, and key roles in the Roman government was run by people who were also priests, in the Republic and early Empire most civic functions were also religious, and after Caesar they regularly deified their leaders.

Given that this object was clearly precious to its owners (found in treasure hoards/graves), wasn't used as a tool where it would receive any wear, and no one discussed it at all, a cult object would make a great deal of sense. Perhaps Gallic Rome had a regional cult these are tied to. There's a massive number of other Roman ritual objects, magic tablet, amulets, curse tablets, and other religious ephemera, the Romans really loved their cults and rites, if you have an unknown Roman object that's conspicuously not spoken about like these things, that itself is a fair reason to suspect the object might be used in secret religious/cult rites.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#338

Post by NHQ »

mkehrt wrote: post #245
hosh wrote: post #236

I remember seeing someone’s demo of using them for knitting. Absent any better explanation, this seems pretty reasonable to me. Example video: https://youtu.be/76AvV601yJ0?si=7qk7VWBHJnxubs1j

This is a theory that keeps coming up on the internet. However, roman dodecahedra predate knitting by almost a thousand years. The earliest known knitting was from the 11th century ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knitting#History_and_culture ), while the earliest dodecahedra are from the 2nd century ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron#History )

To doubt that knitting existed in Roman Times is preposterous. Thats like saying they could not weave baskets. Instead, your incredible hypothesis lends credence to recent studies by internet sleuths that indicate history as we are taught may have an extra 1000 years added simply because dates have been mistranslated or misconstrued to read a 1 (one) where there is indeed an I or J symbol, denoting years since the Christ; IOW that that 1999 is actually J999.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#339

Post by NHQ »

mkehrt wrote: post #247
mildchalupa wrote: post #16

I thought it was determined to be a glove finger knitting apparatus.

Roman dodecahedra predate knitting by almost a thousand years. The earliest known knitting was from the 11th century ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knitting#History_and_culture ), while the earliest dodecahedra are from the 2nd century ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron#History )

To doubt that knitting existed in Roman Times is preposterous. Thats like saying they could not weave baskets. Instead your incredible hypothesis lends credence to recent studies by internet sleuths that indicate history as we are taught may have an extra 1000 years added simply because dates have been mistranslated or misconstrued to read a 1 (one) where there is indeed an I or J symbol, denoting years since the Christ; IOW that that 1999 is actually J999.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#340

Post by bimguy »

gerdesj wrote: post #328
bimguy wrote: post #308

Not sure about "grapefruit-sized" when compared to the hand holding the object in the picture. Assuming it's the one they are writing about. I'd say it's closer to the size of a lime. Unless that person has a uniquely large hand of course. Really interesting find though, never heard of these artefacts before.

Quite. I suspect the narrator might have confused grapefruit with satsuma - easy to do if you ignore size and colour ... morphology and a few other things but all citrus so all good. Much better to stick with silly old normal and sensible measurements. This thing is roughly 0.9 linguine across - https://www.theregister.com/Design/page/reg-standards-conver... Standards are important, that's why we have so many of them…

Hahaha. I've never seen this standards page before. I work in Australia's building industry so I find this page particularly enjoyable.

Thank you for sharing the page and your sharp wit with me.

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