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The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

hawaiiseaglider.org

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Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#101

Post by eesmith »

bruce511 wrote: post #98
eesmith wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for starters you're not bound to islands big enough for an airport. The competition for that space is seaplanes, including both floatplanes and flying boats, which have been around for a century. Electric versions of those exist, like https://harbourair.com/corporate-responsibility/goingelectri... , and https://el-fly.no/ wants to build an electric amphibious flying boat. Yes, a ground-effect vehicle has better win…

>> The competition for that space is seaplanes, including both floatplanes and flying boats Airplanes operate in a hostel environment where the penalty for failure is severe. The translates into a lot of (good) regulation which makes planes expensive to make, and expensive to maintain. Ground effect vehicles are more in the car/boat space when it comes to mechanical failure. Sure I'm not saying it can be made of some…

> which makes planes expensive to make, and expensive to maintain

Understood. Though as the comparison link mentions, there's another important cost - "limited utility has kept production levels low enough that it has been impossible to amortize development costs sufficiently to make GEVs competitive with conventional aircraft".

I don't pretend to have more than a surface knowledge about topic, but when the idea has been around decades, developed and promoted for decades, and is still only a niche mode of travel (along with hovercraft, hydrofoil, and flying boats), that tells me the doubts aren't simply from those who "complain about anything new".

> The statement was that its better than planes or (motor) boats.

Sure. My comment was to point out how complicated the full calculation was, because it should include the electric ferries that becoming available, and not limit itself to motor boats.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#102

Post by Animats »

bruce511 wrote: post #98
eesmith wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for starters you're not bound to islands big enough for an airport. The competition for that space is seaplanes, including both floatplanes and flying boats, which have been around for a century. Electric versions of those exist, like https://harbourair.com/corporate-responsibility/goingelectri... , and https://el-fly.no/ wants to build an electric amphibious flying boat. Yes, a ground-effect vehicle has better win…

>> The competition for that space is seaplanes, including both floatplanes and flying boats Airplanes operate in a hostel environment where the penalty for failure is severe. The translates into a lot of (good) regulation which makes planes expensive to make, and expensive to maintain. Ground effect vehicles are more in the car/boat space when it comes to mechanical failure. Sure I'm not saying it can be made of some…

> Ground effect vehicles are more in the car/boat space when it comes to mechanical failure.

Not quite. This thing depends on dynamic stability. If a wingtip touches the water at speed, it will probably flip. It has to turn without banking. So it has many of the stability and control problems of an aircraft at landing, plus some of the wave problems of a seaplane. It's not like a big, wide hovercraft, where, if you lose power, you just settle down into boat mode.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#103

Post by [deleted] »

tlb wrote: post #58

The aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is fairly small, and the disadvantage is that rogue waves can just randomly splash that high. The current plane's wingspan is 65 feet, which probably means it flies about 32 feet (half a wingspan) off the water. Rogue waves can easily be that high in mild weather, and hitting even a small amount of water at 200 mph (claimed cruise speed) is bad. Lots of sea birds too…

[deleted]

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#104

Post by joshuaheard »

I like the concept. This is how pelicans flow low over the water. However, I have sailed between the Hawaiian islands. The air and water are turbulent due to trade winds and currents getting pushed through gaps in the islands, especially between Oahu and Maui, the most popular route. I looked at the video on their website and it didn't appear stable enough in flight to withstand a big puff pushing it down into a double-size wave. It would probably only work in a narrow weather window.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#105

Post by ryanisnan »

mock-possum wrote: post #94
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually a problem? This feels like something that an automated system could pretty easily detect, up to the range of visibility, and raise the seaplane up if this happens. Further, this is an inter-island route. Adding dedicated monitoring seems imminently doable. Yes, this is a concern. No, it's not hard to deal with.

Isn’t the deal with rogue waves that they’re rogue ? They’re not just big waves that slowly and predictably approach you from the horizon, then continue on their way past you in the opposite direction - they arise suddenly, unpredictably, without warning. One minute everything is smooth sailing, peaks and troughs of a few feet, and then suddenly the sea drops out from under you and now you’re in a 30 foot trough, or…

In my experience, rogue waves are like any other wave, they just aren't a part of a normal "set".

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#106

Post by pavon »

eru wrote: post #42

Thank the Jones Act for making travel between the islands (and between the islands and the US mainland) harder than it should be. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

I can definitely see the big negative impact on transportation of goods to/from Hawaii as a result of that law, as foreign ships can't stop at Hawaii to offload (and or pickup) goods and then continue on to the continental US.

But I'm not seeing why it would be bad for a local ferry. The sailors operating the ferry are going to be living on the islands, so requiring them to be legal permanent residents doesn't seem too onerous. And these don't have enough range to be traveling to foreign islands so that complication doesn't apply.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#107

Post by jamesvnz »

phire wrote: post #66
mkl wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat! I couldn't see where they intend to run it (though it may be hidden in an article). They give a 300km range, which is almost exactly Christchurch–Wellington, so I wonder if that's possible.

Christchurch to Wellington is a bit of a stretch for the range. It's too far to use the Harbour infrastructure at either end. You would have to build a pier on the southern side of Wellington (say Island Bay) and then use New Brighton pier. That works out to about 295 km. With only 300km range, it's hard to find good routes in NZ.

Considering Cook Strait is one of the most dangerous and unpredictable waters in the world - I think I'll pass on flying through it! I've had some dodgy passages through the Wellington harbour entrance - as much as this should fly above it, I'd be feeling rather nervous.

That said, given how much the current ferry has issues - maybe this is just as safe.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#109

Post by eru »

pavon wrote: post #106
eru wrote: post #42

Thank the Jones Act for making travel between the islands (and between the islands and the US mainland) harder than it should be. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

I can definitely see the big negative impact on transportation of goods to/from Hawaii as a result of that law, as foreign ships can't stop at Hawaii to offload (and or pickup) goods and then continue on to the continental US. But I'm not seeing why it would be bad for a local ferry. The sailors operating the ferry are going to be living on the islands, so requiring them to be legal permanent residents doesn't seem t…

The Jones act also requires the ships to be locally built, and the owners to be locals.

So no Chinese investors, or Korean ships. So less competition.

You are right that the requirement for the crews to be local is less of an issue for a local ferry.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#110

Post by noduerme »

pinot wrote: post #36
noduerme wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you're getting this. There are no inter-island ferries anymore in Hawaii, except for the short tourist hops from Maui to Lanai and Molokai. Much longer trips between the big island, Maui and Oahu were possible for a couple years up until 2009 on the Superferry, but it closed after years of legal wrangling over environmental issues.

Big Island never got superferry. Back in the 70s there was Seaflite on Boeing hydroplanes that was short lived as well.

Thanks for the correction.
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