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Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#201

Post by pinko »

tarikjn wrote: post #189
mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

The equivalent today would be 3Dbenchy boats -- "we found an identical boat toy design in multiple sites made of different plastic materials, colors and sizes. It is spread universally around the World cities, found in sites of crafts, leading us to believe it is an idol of a new 21st century religion predominant among workers of the arts and crafts"

Along these lines, if you haven't ever seen it, check out _Motel of the Mysteries_ by David Macaulay. (Yes, that David Macaulay!)

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#202

Post by Someone »

Loughla wrote: post #4

My favorite thing about archaeology is that if they have no idea whatever about the things they find. . . >were used for ritualistic or religious purposes Don't know what it is? Religion baby.

“ritualistic or religious”, and “ritual” has a very broad meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual: “Even common actions like hand-shaking and saying "hello" may be termed as rituals.”

It almost boils down to “we can’t think of a way in which this got anybody (better) fed, clothed or housed”

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#204

Post by yetanotherloser »

mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

I like that theory too and offer a followon explanation: to make a dodecahedron you must make an accurate regular pentagon and this is not trivial with ancient geometric methods, you need to have learned a thing or two to get there. This makes it a better test than, say, an icosahedron. But we do know that the Roman empire wasn't completely unfamiliar with icosahedral dice, probably for a magical or divinatory purpose rather than determining whether your wizard made her saving throw.

An analogy to this "masterpiece" theory might be the industrial-age "Turner's cube" that demonstrates a pretty solid level of ability with a lathe.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#205

Post by wahnfrieden »

LouisSayers wrote: post #198

To me it looks like a paperweight / scroll holder. The knobs are possibly for holding keys or other such items. Perhaps it's an administration tool - used in hotels or for the army when they've received news.

The protruding nubs are clearly to ensure an air gap when it's pressed against some surface, for whatever that runs through the holes (such as rope) to be able to slide in/out without pinching.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#206

Post by bertil »

tarikjn wrote: post #189
mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

The equivalent today would be 3Dbenchy boats -- "we found an identical boat toy design in multiple sites made of different plastic materials, colors and sizes. It is spread universally around the World cities, found in sites of crafts, leading us to believe it is an idol of a new 21st century religion predominant among workers of the arts and crafts"

“Also —and this didn’t make sense to us either— it doesn’t float, and there’s no engine. Our best guess is that it’s meant as a comment on the fulity of life.”

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#207

Post by flir »

imglorp wrote: post #143
lithos wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cities likely had some form of guild system to prove claims like this. The middle of nowhere you could prove yourself with a standardized piece of work. ___ Though personally I like the "glove grandma" video of her crocheting gloves with the pieces.

The knitting aid is persuasive. It fits with the geography, explains the different hole sizes, and it explains the knobs. Here's one of those vids; there are many more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76AvV601yJ0

Annoyingly, there's no wear. It's not a tool.

Also: the size of the tube in French knitting isn't controlled by the size of the hole, it's controlled by the spacing of the pegs. You have to pass the wool over the pegs, so logically the pegs should be cylindrical not round. Earliest evidence for French knitting is 1535. There's no evidence for knitting of any kind until centuries after these things.

I'm going with prentice piece, based on the lack of wear. You hang a diploma on the wall, you put a prentice piece on a shelf for 30 years and barely touch it. (Although the gold examples would argue against this, I think).

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#208

Post by throwitaway222 »

bondarchuk wrote: post #118
RecycledEle wrote: post #9

Just because a measuring device is not standards referenced does not mean it can not be used to measure. If I need a peg to match the size of a drill bit, any collection of 12 holes is likely to have one the size of the drill bit that lets me tell my peg maker to "make the pegs this size." Handymen are just cussed enough* to not label any of them, and to expect the FNG (new guy) to remember which of the 12 unlabeled…

Furthermore this article only states: “They are not of a standard size, so will not be measuring devices." , which is incorrect since for use as a coincidence rangefinder (standardized to some standard) only the ratios between sizes of opposite holes would need to be standardized, not the size of the thing as a whole. The paper "Roman Dodecahedron as dioptron: analysis of freely available data" ( https://arxiv.org/ab…

Seems to me the "experts" have no experience in construction, so they dismiss it - which makes me dismiss them.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#210

Post by LouisSayers »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #205
LouisSayers wrote: post #198

To me it looks like a paperweight / scroll holder. The knobs are possibly for holding keys or other such items. Perhaps it's an administration tool - used in hotels or for the army when they've received news.

The protruding nubs are clearly to ensure an air gap when it's pressed against some surface, for whatever that runs through the holes (such as rope) to be able to slide in/out without pinching.

Which makes sense for paper, because if a table surface gets wet then you don't want the bottom of the scrolls touching a wet table.

Also if you have different sized holes you can rotate the device to have the most used holes facing upwards.

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