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Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

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Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#171
post #157
post #132

If I was a future historian - or a machine intelligence documenting the past based on mindless alignment with a long-gone humanity - I would feel very empathetic towards a common centrist like myself. Politically, I feel completely alone. The right wing are peddling the same old tropes that gave us two world wars in the last hundred years; the left offer corporate-friendly cancel culture, censorship, and an infinite…

The right's position in Europe is that it would like to preserve borders and stop people moving between countries. How is that similar to WW1 or WW2, which were wars intended to abolish all borders and allow citizens of certain countries to move and settle all over the continent against the will of the people who lived there?

> The right's position in Europe is that it would like to preserve borders and stop people moving between countries.

That is the most charitable view possible - but let's say that's the case. What happens if they win and somehow achieve that? Will they just wash their hands and say - now we're done, enjoy, friends?

No, politicians always need to stay in power. Those who don't - never get to power in the first place. The more unstable the world is - the more incentive would there be for them to double down on nationalistic tendencies. So, what do you do with millions of non-ethnic germans that were born in Germany, but are still in some sense considered 'immigrants'? What do you do about the fact that the land where the Prussian kings of old were anointed is now under the yoke of barbarians from the east? Irredentism is a story as old as humanity itself; it can - and I can't see how it won't - be used to rally the electorate. Who would've thought that the senseless Russia-Ukraine war was a possibility? But that is, because that is the logical conclusion of a nationalistic ressentiment. And what do you do when there's not enough people to do fuel the economy - will it be kinder kuche kirche again (because, what else)? Etc, etc.

So, will nationalistic parties just stop at low and order - or, perhaps, there are some other stories, old like the world itself, lurking in the shadows? I can't see the future, but I personally have a strong prior on the latter.

> WW1 or WW2, which were wars intended to abolish all borders

Today I learned.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#172
As soon as there are significant protests by farmers and middle class against the government, a government-sponsored activist NGO publishes a lurid paper about a meeting of conservatives that took place in November 2023. Two days later, another government NGO named the word "remigration" as the bad word of the year 2023 and a few days later a play was even staged in Berlin about this alleged meeting.

Although the article cannot substantiate its claims in any way (e.g. the alleged "secret plan" has been available to everyone in book form for months), the public service media adopt every assertion without distance and make completely unsavory comparisons with the Third Reich.

The government has thus successfully suppressed the perception of protests by farmers and the middle classes. Propaganda in its purest form.

A long text that covers the current situation well: https://www.tichyseinblick.de/meinungen/correctiv-wannsee-un...

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#173

Reading comments, some things seem clear. Democracy is all right if you vote what we like.

This. I don't follow German politics (nor European politics for that matter) but we have to check why the perceived opinion is shifting to the right.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to twist your argument into something brutal - attempts to stop genocides are creating refugees???

Are Five Eyes trying to stop genocides? To my knowledge, the systematic destruction of Gaza and the horrible death toll that accompanies it is still fully supported by the Five Eyes, three and a half months later. They are also expressing opposition to an ongoing genocide trial in a court of the international order that they claim to support and enforce, without even waiting for the trial to play out.

No, the 5-eyes are not preventing any genocide - they are instead participating in the wanton destruction of society ("not quite genocide, but destruction of society nevertheless") across the globe in multiple nations being violently targeted by a clique of ruling oligarchs who long ago granted themselves the moral authority to refactor "lesser, inferior nations" according to their non-democratic religious, political and ideological doctrine.

The criminal 5-eyes super-state is the worlds biggest violator of human rights, bar none.

There are plenty of lesser violators - Russia, Israel, Hamas - but by far the biggest fire is our own 5-eyes criminal endeavour: 34 million refugees from our wars.

5% of Iraqs population murdered in cold blood on the basis of lies.

Near endless destruction of formerly functioning states and cities of millions of people across the landscape.

A non-stop parade of propaganda designed to foment yet further war and atrocity. An absolutely dire and useless diplomatic corps .. the litany of OUR failures to prosecute our own war criminals goes on and on and on ..

1000 CIA-operated black-ops torture sites across the landscape, hidden from the prying eyes of our democratic institutions but not at all invisible to millions of other human beings whose lives were unfortunately started - and too often, cruelly ended - outside our Western morality bubble ..

If you, for a moment, consider that some foreign nation is inferior to your own, you are part of the problem.

Stop doing that. Instead, apply that critical thought to your own nation and DEMAND JUSTICE FOR OUR OWN WAR CRIMINALS.

Because we in the 5-eyes nations have a big, big problem with letting our war criminals have carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want with our military powers .. time and again, over and over again, they get away with it to repeat the act across the landscape.

This must stop. Public ignorance gets in the way of stopping this, and that is why we are all being distracted with hateful agitprop of other nations we believe are morally inferior.

WE are the morally inferior nation we need to be doing something about.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#175
post #12

Speaking only for myself with no sense of authority: there's something in the air that I'm not the only one feeling. Something very subtle seems off. The water is a little hotter, but subtly enough to say "nah it's not like that". The way I see it, tens of thousands took to the streets to make damn sure it won't be like that on their watch. The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further a…

Yea, Kremlin supported AfD is having a success. Putin is happily destroying european unity while we let their propaganda hit us in social media daily. [1] The Russia induced Syrian migrant wave of 2015 sure helped undermine the current right wing popularity rise. [2] And Russias involvement in making brexit happen... [3] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfD_pro-Russia_movement 2: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-weapon…

Russia didn't induce the 2015 migrant wave. The small child on the beach and "refugees welcome" have happened months before Russia's involvement in Syria began.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's everywhere, not just in Germany. Like you said, there's "something in the air". The rise of populism, rebirth of strong nationalism, is everywhere in Europe. I feel like wherever that tide is pushed back, it grows stronger in the background anyway. And the worst thing is, I don't really see how this could get better. Economic problems will continue to grow for at least several years, and one of the most contenio…

It's worth to look at the underlying cause for these sentiments gaining popularity and support in recent years. I'm pretty sure to some degree it has to do with native European populations being unhappy about illegal immigration and the problems arising from that. And before you call me a racist: mainstream media kept redefining the meaning of the word refugee for a while now. For example: refugees are expected to st…

> For example: refugees are expected to stop at the nearest safe haven

If that were true, countries next to warzones would risk destabilization (moreso than they already do). The system's not set up like that, and never has been.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#177

Reading comments, some things seem clear. Democracy is all right if you vote what we like.

This. I don't follow German politics (nor European politics for that matter) but we have to check why the perceived opinion is shifting to the right.

The way you state your sentence indicates that you see this as a problem?

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#178
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's everywhere, not just in Germany. Like you said, there's "something in the air". The rise of populism, rebirth of strong nationalism, is everywhere in Europe. I feel like wherever that tide is pushed back, it grows stronger in the background anyway. And the worst thing is, I don't really see how this could get better. Economic problems will continue to grow for at least several years, and one of the most contenio…

Fascism is a product of capitalism's crisis. It's the final breath of capitalism when the system is not working for the masses, it's counter revolutionary, it's a doubling down of the status quo into a more violent form. Wages stagnated, inflation is eating up the last pennies of a more impoverished worker class, populism will always rise up from these conditions, and right wing populism will eventually lead to fasci…

Fascism and Communism. Two sides of the same coin. In fact, they are so similar even in their base, they ended up as mortal enemy of each other.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#179
post #161
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a de facto Nazi Leader (Höcke) Well that sort of language won't help. The AfD are not Nazis. This claim makes everything worse and needs to be discarded. The National Socialists campaigned very openly on Hitler's belief that democracy was a bad system that should be abolished. Nobody was surprised when he went ahead and did that, because that's exactly what he always said he would do. They also campaigned on a very…

Well, there was an official court case about it, with the result that Höcke indeed may be called a faschist, due to many things he said, that were often literal Nazi quotes. And he was a history teacher, so he knows what he was referencing. (and yes, I oversimplify a bit by conflating nazis with faschists, but a) I see no fundamental difference b) it is pretty much common nowdays And the AfD in its whole is not a Naz…

Was there a court case? I can only find reference to an accusation that he might have said in a speech "Everything for our homeland, everything for Saxony-Anhalt, everything for Germany", which apparently everyone should know shares the last three words with an SS slogan and that therefore saying it is indisputable signs of wanting to conquer Poland. Also Höcke claimed he didn't know this but, according to his critics, being a history teacher, he must have known really.

This supposedly famous SS slogan is a "motto applied to the blades of uniform daggers worn by the SA and National Socialist Motor Corps (NSKK)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Nazi_Germany

For sure everyone in Germany memorizes literally everything ever printed on any physical object made by the Nazis. A totally reasonable expectation that is not at all driven by a desire to ban their political opponents. According to the Glossary, the Nazis were also fond of criticizing Das System, which is what they called the Weimar Republic. I'm sure nobody on the German left has ever railed against The System because that would be Nazi language, and certainly the Verfassungsschutz would investigate such things promptly and without bias.

This kind of thing makes Germany look ridiculous and sinister.

> The original Nazis also did not do socialism, but rather elimenated their socialist wing soon after taking power.

Hitler killed fellow Nazis for the same reasons Lenin and Stalin killed fellow Soviets. It's wrong to assume a socialist dictator would not kill fellow socialists. They always do. It's one of the things that makes them scary, even their allies aren't safe. As for the "original" Nazis, here's a quote for you:

"Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one’s fellow man’s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income. And we were aware that in this fight we can rely on no one but our own people. We are convinced that socialism in the right sense will only be possible in nations and races that are Aryan, and there in the first place we hope for our own people and are convinced that socialism is inseparable from nationalism"

> the quotes he uses, well, I assume you understand german, so maybe read for yourself?

I spot checked a few of them but none of the sources check out. Some are 404s or paywalled. Other quotes come from writing by Landolf Ladig. From Googling it appears the German left think this was once a pseudonym for Höcke, but he denies it. The journalist who makes this claim based it on the fact that Höcke once used the term organic market economy, and that term also appears in this article. That's such a weak standard of evidence it's insufficient to make such incendiary claims.

Quote 14 says Germany isn't a real democracy because of speech controls. That he complains about being censored is then used as evidence he's a Nazi who should be censored.

In another place Höcke is quoted as saying "this Merkel system is all cartel parties that do not mean well for this country" which the page paraphrases as "Höcke wants to abolish all other parties", which is not what he said.

Another: "I am taking this party down a long and difficult path. But it is the only path that leads to a complete victory" which is paraphrased as him wanting a "Final victory" which is then presented as evidence of being a fascist.

Quote 24 says the AfD should only consider a coalition with other parties if they change their positions. This is scandalous because refusing to consider coalitions is something only his opponents are allowed to do, apparently.

This compilation comes across as untrustworthy. They have to rephrase everything he said and attribute things not written under his name, because if they didn't their thesis wouldn't hold.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> a new form of what we call colonialism I call this auto-colonialism . Certainly in the West (if not globally since as we know our “owners and masters” just met in Davos) there is clearly a super-layer that went ‘transnational’ and has been extracting wealth from its own people. And speaking of “own people” this is precisely why they do not give a flying F about “cultural heritage” and anything whatsoever that ‘cond…

An eeeevil plan to transform virtually every country in the world, for three decades, without a single leak? And all those type A personalities pulling in the same direction? That's incredible!
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