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Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

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Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#161
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were also some rallies in saxony and more are scheduled for next weekend. Way lower in numbers of course, but it is something. And it is a wake up call for people to come together, before it is too late. "the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored." And most of those…

> a de facto Nazi Leader (Höcke) Well that sort of language won't help. The AfD are not Nazis. This claim makes everything worse and needs to be discarded. The National Socialists campaigned very openly on Hitler's belief that democracy was a bad system that should be abolished. Nobody was surprised when he went ahead and did that, because that's exactly what he always said he would do. They also campaigned on a very…

Well, there was an official court case about it, with the result that Höcke indeed may be called a faschist, due to many things he said, that were often literal Nazi quotes. And he was a history teacher, so he knows what he was referencing. (and yes, I oversimplify a bit by conflating nazis with faschists, but a) I see no fundamental difference b) it is pretty much common nowdays

And the AfD in its whole is not a Nazi Party, but some sections like thuringia, the base of Hoecke, are verified far right extremists, according to the Verfassungsschutz.

And Hoecke becomes increasingly powerful within the party, many sources say he is already the de facto leader.

And I frequently read their news sites and forums. But I never read of criticism of Hoecke there - so this means to me, the rest of the AfD may not be propper faschists (yet) - but they accept that one of their main leaders is one. That tells me enough.

"The AfD in contrast:

- Disdain socialism

- Do not organize massive street rallies"

The original Nazis also did not do socialism, but rather elimenated their socialist wing soon after taking power. And the AfD surely would love to organize bigger rallies, than they already do. They just cannot, as in reality they do not have the majority behind them, unlike they like to think.

"or the ones who have already had a key policy invalidated as unconstitutional"

And are you talking about the covid money transfers? There was a court case and it was ruled not allright. But nothing of the sort that the Ampel is opposed to the constitution. There was also a constitutional ruling that the government is not doing enough for climate change. Constitutional rulings against the government happen all the time and it is simply the job of the Verfafssungsgericht to make sure that the government stays in line. A system that is somewhat working.

Hoecke on the other hand marched together with the NPD .. and the quotes he uses, well, I assume you understand german, so maybe read for yourself?

https://www.volksverpetzer.de/hintergrund/25-hoecke-zitate/

It is verified by now that he admires the Nazis and dreams of a new German Empire. That is very much unconstitutional, opposed to a wrong accounting trick.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were also some rallies in saxony and more are scheduled for next weekend. Way lower in numbers of course, but it is something. And it is a wake up call for people to come together, before it is too late. "the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored." And most of those…

I don't live in Germany, but your points seem similar to what I see happen on this side of the Rhine. But what are those people to do? Their only weapon is the ballot. I don't know how elections work over there, but over here, blank votes aren't counted. You can't vote "against" someone while at the same time not voting for someone else. Don't like Macron nor Le Pen (the runner-up in the last elections)? Tough. Your…

"Calling them racists and whatnot will very probably not help "non-nazis'" case."

Well, but they overwhelmingly are racists. I should know, I grew up and live here. And I debate with them. And I try to shield my half german kids from their racism as much as possible.

Of course, officially allmost no one is a racist. So there is a meme by now: "I am no racist, but .... " (followed by something clearly racists, germany needs to remain white, but of course white is also not said, but biological germans. Autochtone germans, etc. )

"Their only weapon is the ballot. I don't know how elections work over there, but over here, blank votes aren't counted."

Over here neither. And I also have a hard time finding a party I could really support. And I am also pissed of at the government. I still don't vote for people, who want a new german empire, as I see no improvement here, but rather the opposite. Oh and quite many there (but not all) also dream of joining forces with Putin as he also hates multiculture and diversity. I understand the frustration that made people go into that direction - that does not mean I have to open myself up, to embrace them.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, Kremlin supported AfD is having a success. Putin is happily destroying european unity while we let their propaganda hit us in social media daily. [1] The Russia induced Syrian migrant wave of 2015 sure helped undermine the current right wing popularity rise. [2] And Russias involvement in making brexit happen... [3] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfD_pro-Russia_movement 2: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-weapon…

>The Russia induced Syrian migrant wave of 2015 sure helped undermine the current right wing popularity rise. [2] I think you mean the 5-eyes induced ME immigration that started in 2003 with the illegal invasion and destruction of 5% of Iraqs population, the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan, destruction of Libya, invasion and occupation of Syria by the West , and so on. We (5-eyes and by proxy, Europe too) still oc…

The "migrant wave" is a bit more complex than that and largely manufactured and artificially intensified as a political talking point which the AfD (and other far-right movements in Europe) primarily benefited from.

Some factors involved are:

- Turkey and other "gateway" states closing their outbound borders to Europe in return for financial and political favors, thus preventing "migrants" (mostly refugees and asylum seekers, legitimate or not) from moving into Europe - Libya even went so far as to imprison migrants on spurious charges

- the lackluster handling of post-war Iraq and Afghanistan and the lukewarm involvement by Western powers in the Arab Spring creating a power vaccuum filled that allowed for the rise of ISIS and prolonged the Syrian civil war (which even saw an absurd NATO-internal confrontation between Turkey-backed ISIS-affiliated groups and US-backed Kurdish Rojava - until the US pulled out)

- brutal and at times legally dubious treatment of "migrants" by EU border countries (e.g. preventing rescue attempts at sea resulting in people drowning that could otherwise have been saved, "refugee camps" in places like Lampedusa or tent cities near the French-UK transit lines)

- countries like Germany being unwilling or very slow to allocate more resources to the actual processing of "migrants" and asylum requests or the housing and aid provided to them (contrast this with the "quick and unbureaucratic help" immediately extended to Ukranian refugees where politicians literally said the refugee housing was inadequate for them - legally, Ukranian refugees were and still are treated more like foreign EU citizens rather than as refugees when it comes to various permits and benefits)

In effect, the 2015 "migrant wave" was rather uneventful in Germany if you look at the actual numbers. It was a temporary spike followed by a statistically high plateau in 2016 caused by the bureaucratic backlog rather than a still ongoing "wave". But of course there was a trendic topic of a "migrant wave" present throughout the media and heavily utilized by the AfD as one of the only parties to run with it and use it to their advantage (whereas none of the other parties really had any interest in debunking it wholesale, thus just appearing rhetorically weak).

Prior to the sanctions that followed the invasion of Ukraine, Russia had very successfully seeded right-wing movements in Western countries and used social media, RT and Sputnik to provide a "counter-narrative" to mainstream and public news. It's telling that when the sanctions started, a lot of the COVID deniers rebranded as "peace movements" and often explicitly used Russian flags as symbols of solidarity while calling for an end to military aid to Ukraine.

Yes, the Western nations are hardly innocent when it comes to interfering in or outright invading in foreign countries, especially in the Middle East, but neither is Russia although Russian interference is historically less blatant and less open, often using plausible deniability or multiple parallel constructions (i.e. less misinfo or disinfo and more undermining the trust in any form of info altogether by pushing multiple mutually contradictory alternative explanations).

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen. You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of. Meanwhile, here in Germany you can and will get arrested for wearing a bicycle helmet...

>You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of. I would be envious on a culture of innovation, building and getting things done.

We actually do have all of those.

French research is doing fine, and infrastructures are in a much better shape than in the US. Things keep being built, I can't spend a minute outside without seeing some giant machine running. We are incredibly productive given a 35 hours work week, so getting things done is also right there.

Our problem is rather turning innovation into a business. Getting money for it. Taking risks.

Instead, innovations and innovators emigrate to the US. Yann LeCun went to do AI in the US, he didn't stay in France.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far from it, I earn too much to be able to get any support from the government. Including the parental leave pay.

[flagged]

You copy/paste these comments on every unrelated post created by immigrants. Please stop.

Obviously your comment is irrelevant, your parent poster didn't migrate "without paying any cost or contributing in the form of higher taxes" but indeed pays extremely high tax rates without receiving nearly any social benefits. This finances the life styles of the (mostly) retired or underemployed voters who oppose this migration.

Conflating legal economic migration with illegal immigration, asylum and/or refugee status is a foreign disinformation tactic to radicalise people against their neighbours.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they really are escaping OUR wars, which we are fighting because we are using the presence of 'dictators' in the region as an excuse to expand our control over the Middle East and demolish nation after nation, per plans made by PNAC/CNAC criminals decades ago. The Western nations have a LOT of innocent blood on our hands, more so than any dictator you might care to identify as your hated enemy/Emmanuel Goldstein…

I'm going to twist your argument into something brutal - attempts to stop genocides are creating refugees???

Are Five Eyes trying to stop genocides? To my knowledge, the systematic destruction of Gaza and the horrible death toll that accompanies it is still fully supported by the Five Eyes, three and a half months later. They are also expressing opposition to an ongoing genocide trial in a court of the international order that they claim to support and enforce, without even waiting for the trial to play out.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen. You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of. Meanwhile, here in Germany you can and will get arrested for wearing a bicycle helmet...

>You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of. I would be envious on a culture of innovation, building and getting things done.

American culture is to be envied by all. Europe has a lot to learn.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#168
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that refugees are a significant part of the perceived problem, but as an immigrant, I'm on line two of that Niemöller poem and I won't wait and see where Saxon farmers draw the line. I'm not surprised by any of this, but I'm definitely not feeling easy about it.

[flagged]

The processes through which immigrants and refugees settle in Germany are enshrined into democratically enacted laws. The refugees did not demand it; Germans with voting rights did.

The presence of all immigrants except refugees is contingent on their ability to support themselves. This is a legal requirement and it's verified at every step of the immigration process.

I can't just "walk into your home". I've been here 9 years, and I'm still waiting for the immigration office to confirm that yes, I'm still supporting myself (and quite a few German retirees), and that yes, I can live in this country for another few years.

From my perspective, I was raised, educated and trained by another country, then moved to Germany in my prime to pay taxes and support the local economy, and if all goes well, I'll retire elsewhere before I'm a strain on the healthcare or pension system. I can't vote, and my presence in this country is directly linked to my ability to pay taxes.

But sure, I'm getting all the new benefits.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#169
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Russia induced Syrian migrant wave of 2015 sure helped undermine the current right wing popularity rise. [2] I think you mean the 5-eyes induced ME immigration that started in 2003 with the illegal invasion and destruction of 5% of Iraqs population, the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan, destruction of Libya, invasion and occupation of Syria by the West , and so on. We (5-eyes and by proxy, Europe too) still oc…

The "migrant wave" is a bit more complex than that and largely manufactured and artificially intensified as a political talking point which the AfD (and other far-right movements in Europe) primarily benefited from. Some factors involved are: - Turkey and other "gateway" states closing their outbound borders to Europe in return for financial and political favors, thus preventing "migrants" (mostly refugees and asylum…

> In effect, the 2015 "migrant wave" was rather uneventful in Germany

Nobody ever mentions brexit, even though it had a significant bureaucratic impact. The immigration office was clearly affected by it. Now it's equally impacted by the wave of Ukrainian refugees. I see these clearly since I work with the immigration office a lot.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think migration is mostly driven by technological changes. Tens of thousands simply fly to Middle America and trek to the US border. That (tens of thousands affording a plane ticket) wouldn't have been possible in the 90s's. Regardless of whether it's climate change, population growth or growing riches though, it's going to get more intensive in the future.

>>I think migration is mostly driven by technological changes. Tens of thousands simply fly to Middle America and trek to the US border. While you aren't wrong, I don't see how that's relevant when talking about immigration into Europe from Africa and Middle East - those migrants arrive either on foot or on crappy boats, at best they manage to catch a train or get trafficked inside a van. They aren't flying in.

Not all ME immigrants are refugees. For most people, immigration means meeting a list of requirements and months of paperwork. The process is much harder for ME nationals than for people from favored nations.
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