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Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

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Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#151

Post by nvm0n2 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #96
shiroiuma wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass rallies in Berlin and Munich aren't going to do much about blatant racism in Saxony. That's a bit like an American thinking that activism in NYC is going to have a real effect on the mentality of people in rural Mississippi. The values of people in those different areas are extremely different, and the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies…

There were also some rallies in saxony and more are scheduled for next weekend. Way lower in numbers of course, but it is something. And it is a wake up call for people to come together, before it is too late. "the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored." And most of those…

> a de facto Nazi Leader (Höcke)

Well that sort of language won't help. The AfD are not Nazis. This claim makes everything worse and needs to be discarded.

The National Socialists campaigned very openly on Hitler's belief that democracy was a bad system that should be abolished. Nobody was surprised when he went ahead and did that, because that's exactly what he always said he would do. They also campaigned on a very left wing agenda, with lots of talk in their speeches about comrades and ending class divisions, and they ran regular shows of strength in the streets with mass rallies of their supporters.

The AfD in contrast:

- Disdain socialism

- Do not organize massive street rallies

- Campaign on pro-democratic positions, like wanting lots of Swiss-style referendums. They say they dislike the EU because it's got a democratic deficit and they talk sometimes about a UK style referendum on leaving it, for that reason

Their opponents:

- Are left wing

- Organize massive rallies of supporters on the streets

- Take anti-democratic positions, like wanting to ban their opponents

So it's very dangerous strategy to attack the AfD as Nazis because they can just turn this around. They will say to those who listen: who is the bigger threat to the constitution? The people who spend years engaging in peaceful political campaigning (AfD), or the ones who have already had a key policy invalidated as unconstitutional and now talk about making it illegal to vote against their other policies (Ampel)?

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#152

Post by dzhiurgis »

boffinAudio wrote: post #147
dzhiurgis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting emotional spin, but they aren't really escaping our wars - they running away from dictators they elected

No, they really are escaping OUR wars, which we are fighting because we are using the presence of 'dictators' in the region as an excuse to expand our control over the Middle East and demolish nation after nation, per plans made by PNAC/CNAC criminals decades ago. The Western nations have a LOT of innocent blood on our hands, more so than any dictator you might care to identify as your hated enemy/Emmanuel Goldstein…

I'm going to twist your argument into something brutal - attempts to stop genocides are creating refugees???

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#153

Post by nvm0n2 »

dtf wrote: post #78
aurareturn wrote: post #47

As someone who doesn't live in Europe and never set foot in Europe, it seems like the #1 issue is immigration - both legal and refugees. Am I correct?

There was a piece in the Guardian this morning arguing that it differed by country, and in particular that in countries with vocally anti-migrant governments such as Italy, it had become less of an issue. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/crisis... "Germany is the only country where immigration is clearly in the lead when people are asked which crisis bothers them most when they think about the fu…

That article seems rather confused. They asked people "Which of the following issues has, over the past decade, most changed the way you look at your future?" and then assume that this is what will define the 2024 election year. Clearly COVID will not.

So that leaves climate and immigration, but the question is very vague. "Changed the way you look at the future" doesn't imply you think there's a crisis or will vote for a party that treats the issue as a crisis. The Guardian and the organization they cite both think it does.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#154

Post by [deleted] »

thejackgoode wrote: post #88
fabian2k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that triggered the protests was a meeting of the far right including AFD people where they discussed a plan to deport all migrants including those that have a German passport. There is no listening to that kind of blatantly unconstitutional nonsense. I do think the communication from the left on migration is often problematic, at least for the center-left parties in Germany there isn't a huge difference to…

Was the recent change to legislation which made only 3 years of residence enough to apply for citizenship a trigger for this? In most countries it’s 5-10 years

[deleted]

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#155

Post by rswskg »

gambiting wrote: post #23
nicbou wrote: post #12

Speaking only for myself with no sense of authority: there's something in the air that I'm not the only one feeling. Something very subtle seems off. The water is a little hotter, but subtly enough to say "nah it's not like that". The way I see it, tens of thousands took to the streets to make damn sure it won't be like that on their watch. The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further a…

It's everywhere, not just in Germany. Like you said, there's "something in the air". The rise of populism, rebirth of strong nationalism, is everywhere in Europe. I feel like wherever that tide is pushed back, it grows stronger in the background anyway. And the worst thing is, I don't really see how this could get better. Economic problems will continue to grow for at least several years, and one of the most contenio…

Then you will never understand these people.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#156

Post by bitcharmer »

marak830 wrote: post #138
bitcharmer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean?

[flagged]

> As long as we all remember that it's never a bad day to punch a nazi

I'm not sure if I like the idea of being violent towards anyone because of their beliefs. Also, terms like nazi, antisemite or racist completely lost their meaning and nowadays just mean someone you disagree with.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#157

Post by nvm0n2 »

suslik wrote: post #132

If I was a future historian - or a machine intelligence documenting the past based on mindless alignment with a long-gone humanity - I would feel very empathetic towards a common centrist like myself. Politically, I feel completely alone. The right wing are peddling the same old tropes that gave us two world wars in the last hundred years; the left offer corporate-friendly cancel culture, censorship, and an infinite…

The right's position in Europe is that it would like to preserve borders and stop people moving between countries. How is that similar to WW1 or WW2, which were wars intended to abolish all borders and allow citizens of certain countries to move and settle all over the continent against the will of the people who lived there?

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#158

Post by nvm0n2 »

leipert wrote: post #24
nicbou wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is a lot compared to France. It's a lot for Germany, especially without a huge catalysing event.

There was a huge catalyzing event. A lot of high rank AfD party members met with known far-right/neo-nazi people in a „secret“ meeting: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-afd-disputes-remigration-inves...

"A lot" means 2, they weren't neo-Nazis, the CDU also had people there and the meeting was so secret that journalists turned up to it on the day it was happening.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#159

Post by gambiting »

rswskg wrote: post #155
gambiting wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's everywhere, not just in Germany. Like you said, there's "something in the air". The rise of populism, rebirth of strong nationalism, is everywhere in Europe. I feel like wherever that tide is pushed back, it grows stronger in the background anyway. And the worst thing is, I don't really see how this could get better. Economic problems will continue to grow for at least several years, and one of the most contenio…

Then you will never understand these people.

Which people? In my comment I'm talking about like 4 distinct groups of people, which one you mean, exactly?

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#160

Post by boffinAudio »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #152
boffinAudio wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they really are escaping OUR wars, which we are fighting because we are using the presence of 'dictators' in the region as an excuse to expand our control over the Middle East and demolish nation after nation, per plans made by PNAC/CNAC criminals decades ago. The Western nations have a LOT of innocent blood on our hands, more so than any dictator you might care to identify as your hated enemy/Emmanuel Goldstein…

I'm going to twist your argument into something brutal - attempts to stop genocides are creating refugees???

The genocides we support (Yemen, Somalia) and the destruction of the civilization of countless other sovereign nations as dictated by our oligarchic ruling class - factually a segment of a ruling military junta which dictates foreign policy doctrine allowing for the wanton destruction of other nations - is what is producing the refugee crisis in the world today.

34 million refugees from OUR wars clog Europes borders, currently. That is the biggest issue we have to deal with: why are they there?

They are there because USA and and its allies in Europe have given themselves the false moral authority to destroy nations, cart blanche: Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen - on the basis of a fundamentally racist ideology set in place by the oligarch ruling classes who seek to profit from these wars, and have DONE SO for decades now.

Yes, we are destroying nations in the Middle East on the basis of racist, intolerable policies set in place by known fascist oligarchs of OUR OWN MAKING.

We are NOT stopping genocide. We are actively funding and supporting them.

OUR failure to accept responsibility for this fact is why our nations are inundated with refugees and immigrants.

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