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Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

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Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#61

Post by woodpanel »

For context: This happened after an allegedly "secret plan against Germany" was leaked which the AfD conceived during a secret gathering and by which they want to "deport millions of citizens".

What is not said however is:

- that this meeting never was secret

- there was no plan conceived but rather a kind of conservative TED-talk of individuals

- that the smeared politicians (from other parties than AfD as well) are already suing the news outlet leaking this for libel

- that the leaking news-outlet is mostly government funded and its leadership almost entirley comprised of members of the ruling SPD- and Green-Party

- that not one of the attendees used the word "deportation"

- that not one of the attendees talked about "deporting citizens"

- that this meeting happened in november last year thus raising a lot of red flags about the timing of leaking this "story": As it just got released to the press days before the culmination of the government-critical, authentic, farmers-protests. Which are in contrast to the "anti-deportation" protests not run and organized by political parties (especially not those parties in power).

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#62

Post by 15457345234 »

google234123 wrote: post #13
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #8

That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen. In fact, it's a drop in the sea, compared to the rising casual xenophobia I can notice with my German acquaintances, friends, and even family. Medias, general discussions, and overall atmosphere is not going in…

In a democracy, the people have a right to control immigration. Uncontrolled immigration has been very anti democratic and has angered people literally all over the world (you can find many examples). I’m tired of people thinking that just because they have some reflective empathy doesn’t make their policy choices better or morally superior. There are real negatives when it comes to it that many in the left pretend d…

Yeah, that's the theory, but in practice, pretty much across all EU countries, for about 35+ years there was no party which you could vote for which both had a chance of being able to form a government and had an anti-immigration policy.

For all intents and purposes immigration policy was not (and remains not) somthing that was under democratic influence. That's why so many conspiracy theories have sprung up around the subject.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#63

Post by Tryanasorus »

nicbou wrote: post #12

Speaking only for myself with no sense of authority: there's something in the air that I'm not the only one feeling. Something very subtle seems off. The water is a little hotter, but subtly enough to say "nah it's not like that". The way I see it, tens of thousands took to the streets to make damn sure it won't be like that on their watch. The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further a…

[flagged]

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#64

Post by DeathArrow »

mschuster91 wrote: post #11
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #8

That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen. In fact, it's a drop in the sea, compared to the rising casual xenophobia I can notice with my German acquaintances, friends, and even family. Medias, general discussions, and overall atmosphere is not going in…

> That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen. You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of. Meanwhile, here in Germany you can and will get arrested for wearing a bicycle helmet...

>You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of.

I would be envious on a culture of innovation, building and getting things done.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#65

Post by stavros »

shzhdbi09gv8ioi wrote: post #60
stavros wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's KREML? Are we making up stock-sounding words now?

You know what it is. Kreml is the russian, german and swedish spelling and pronunciation of Kremlin.

That makes sense, thanks.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#66

Post by eclecticfrank »

Organisers of the protests estimated that there were 1,4 million participants in Germany over the weekend.[1] German police had a more conservative estimate of 900k participants.[2]

In the city where I'm staying (Cologne) 80k people showed up. That's almost one in ten for a city of a million. That is impressive.

It's easy to say these numbers are not large enough for a country of 83 million. What has to be taken into account, is that it happened all in a matter of a week and nationwide. These were not protests that were advertised and organised long before.

[1] https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2024-01/muenchner-demo-gege...

[2] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-01/proteste-rec...

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#67

Post by knallfrosch »

hnhg wrote: post #10

Meanwhile the AfD is looking to at least double their share of the votes perhaps to almost 25% of the electorate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_G...

Yes, that is directly related.

I think the protests were a much needed morale boost for all middle-plus-left voters, but the real power is still with the swing voters that can give their vote to either the legacy parties or the AfD. The fact that many parties now woo these swing voters enfuriates much of the middle-plus-left electorate. They consider not voting for the AfD to be a no-brainer democratic duty anyway and dismiss the notion that one should entice these 25% of voters with anything. Kind of as it is with Trump.

As to why the swing voters might vote for the AfD, consider that the right-most non-AfD party is the Union (CDU+CSU) of Merkel that welcomed 1mio Syrian refugees in 2015 and has, mostly passively, overseen a massive influx of Ukrainian, Syrian and Afghan migrants. There is currently no right-of-center party that is neither the AfD and can credibly claim to limit migration.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#68

Post by nicbou »

hutzlibu wrote: post #41
nicbou wrote: post #12

Speaking only for myself with no sense of authority: there's something in the air that I'm not the only one feeling. Something very subtle seems off. The water is a little hotter, but subtly enough to say "nah it's not like that". The way I see it, tens of thousands took to the streets to make damn sure it won't be like that on their watch. The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further a…

"The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further and further into other parties' voter bases" They reached into actual daily politics of the government - because Chancellor Scholz now also say things like "we have to start massivly kicking immigrants out" https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/olaf-scholz-ueber...

This is when I started paying attention. The anti-immigration sentiment has flared up and it became advantageous to fan those flames, even as a boring centrist party.

The overton window has shifted right even in left-leaning, immigrant-packed forums. I am stunned by the sort of stuff I see on reddit these days. They think that they'll only come for the other immigrants. I'm not going to wait and see.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#69

Post by shiroiuma »

hutzlibu wrote: post #31
hnhg wrote: post #10

Meanwhile the AfD is looking to at least double their share of the votes perhaps to almost 25% of the electorate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_G...

Yes and they likely will win in some eastern states. "The party leads in several states in eastern Germany, the region where its support is strongest — including three, Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, that are slated to hold elections this fall." Which sucks, because I happen to live there. And my partner with latin american origins often experience racism here. So we are thinking of going away, but the mass ralli…

Mass rallies in Berlin and Munich aren't going to do much about blatant racism in Saxony. That's a bit like an American thinking that activism in NYC is going to have a real effect on the mentality of people in rural Mississippi. The values of people in those different areas are extremely different, and the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored.

Re: Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

#70

Post by bitcharmer »

gambiting wrote: post #23
nicbou wrote: post #12

Speaking only for myself with no sense of authority: there's something in the air that I'm not the only one feeling. Something very subtle seems off. The water is a little hotter, but subtly enough to say "nah it's not like that". The way I see it, tens of thousands took to the streets to make damn sure it won't be like that on their watch. The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further a…

It's everywhere, not just in Germany. Like you said, there's "something in the air". The rise of populism, rebirth of strong nationalism, is everywhere in Europe. I feel like wherever that tide is pushed back, it grows stronger in the background anyway. And the worst thing is, I don't really see how this could get better. Economic problems will continue to grow for at least several years, and one of the most contenio…

It's worth to look at the underlying cause for these sentiments gaining popularity and support in recent years. I'm pretty sure to some degree it has to do with native European populations being unhappy about illegal immigration and the problems arising from that.

And before you call me a racist: mainstream media kept redefining the meaning of the word refugee for a while now. For example: refugees are expected to stop at the nearest safe haven and not traverse multiple countries to end up in the one with the biggest social benefits. Also, tonnes of young men arriving from war-torn regions with disproportionate ratio of women and children. News outlets advertising these groups as doctors and engineers which at this point is a meme.

Economical burden, elevated crime rates and social tensions caused by this are quite apparent. Just look at Sweden, France, Germany. UK has it lucky because it's an island and harder to get into. All that while everyone pointing at these topics as unresolved problems getting branded as racist or xenophobe. It's only natural people get angry and start leaning toward populist assholes who promise to "solve" these problems one way or another.

The pendulum is starting to sway back and that is not a good thing but also not unexpected the way things were going.

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