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Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

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Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#121

Post by playingalong »

p1mrx wrote: post #69
notatoad wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool, but "read and change your data on all websites" is imho not worth the functionality. that seems ripe for takeover by some scammer.

IPvFoo author here. The problem is that there's no way to obtain the (hostname, ip) stream from Chrome/Firefox without requesting the "all websites" permission. In theory, browser vendors could define a narrowly-scoped permission that only reports (hostname, ip), or roll this functionality into the browser UI, but neither seems likely to happen. I made IPvFoo to promote IPv6 adoption, and wouldn't consider selling it…

> $10M USD

Hah. You take a strong starting position in the negotiations ;)

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#122

Post by IcePic »

viraptor wrote: post #82
Kab1r wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually have the issue where my ISP gives me a single /64 and it makes it difficult to split between multiple LANs.

What do you mean by that? What you do inside your assigned range is completely up to you - you can split that up as you want.

This is the same as if you get a /24 from your ISP, but the ISP has the .1 address on their router. In this case, you can't (easily) subnet the v4 range either, since the ISP router expects to be able to arp for all the 254 ips, meaning you have to resort to trickery in order to make subnetting almost work.

Same goes for ipv6. If you get one single net (and a 'small' one at that), you once again have to resort to trickery to subnet at your end.

Preferably in both cases, you would get a small (/31 for v4, /127 for v6) transport net that goes to the ISP router or your first fw device, then the ISP routes the real net /24 (or whatever size you can get from it on v6) behind your IP on the /31,/127 so that your first device can split this in any way you prefer.

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#123

Post by outofmyshed »

tsimionescu wrote: post #109
CSSer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next few months may be hard for you. AWS will start charging for ipv4 on February 1st, so it’s likely that either a mass migration is coming or prices for many services will increase accordingly to pass that cost along to customers.

The IPv4 price is still tiny, and you anyway have to pay for it since going IPv6-only is not viable for a service in 2024 still. It's not going to significantly move the needle towards IPv6. And the price hikes will also be tiny.

Well, my employer’s AWS bill is in the region of $20m/year and the additional IPv4 tax is on track for adding an additional $250k to that for no benefit at all.

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#124

Post by p1mrx »

codetrotter wrote: post #108
p1mrx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPvFoo author here. The problem is that there's no way to obtain the (hostname, ip) stream from Chrome/Firefox without requesting the "all websites" permission. In theory, browser vendors could define a narrowly-scoped permission that only reports (hostname, ip), or roll this functionality into the browser UI, but neither seems likely to happen. I made IPvFoo to promote IPv6 adoption, and wouldn't consider selling it…

> IPvFoo author here It makes sense that you would notice the change then :D Was this a situation where you had to do a double-take? Like, you opened HN today and saw that your extension said IPv6 and for a split second you wondered if your extension had made a mistake? Before seeing that indeed HN has IPv6 now.

I didn't really think it was a mistake, just switched to "Morpheus is fighting Neo!" mode and started collecting evidence, most of which is in the post.

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#125

Post by IcePic »

tsimionescu wrote: post #102
rumdz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense. I'm very curious about real-world studies. As a gamer, I'm especially interested in the affect ipv6 has on UDP for real time gaming applications. That's an area where even 5ms can have an enormous affect on the experience.

That's a very interesting case, as UDP is very reliant on MTU. If the IPv6 headers take out more space from the ethernet frame, that leaves less space for the UDP payload. Which means that a UDP payload which was at the limit for IPv4 on the typical MTU needs to be fragmented into two IPv6 packets, which will likely increase latency quite significantly. However, this will depend on each specific game, if they are usi…

If you try "ping" and "ping6" towards a multi-protocol host, you see both send 64 bytes each, so while v6 source and destination addresses take up lots of extra space, the v6 IP packets have less of the "this part could be useful for tcp" which means icmp pings can be of the same size, even though the two addresses eat up lots more bytes.

Not sure if the same goes for game UDP packets, but the optional header stuff in v6 IP packets means more of it goes to the useful parts of the payload and less to "the sum of all protocol bits and flags that is not used by all traffic".

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#126

Post by ffomni »

p1mrx wrote: post #69
notatoad wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool, but "read and change your data on all websites" is imho not worth the functionality. that seems ripe for takeover by some scammer.

IPvFoo author here. The problem is that there's no way to obtain the (hostname, ip) stream from Chrome/Firefox without requesting the "all websites" permission. In theory, browser vendors could define a narrowly-scoped permission that only reports (hostname, ip), or roll this functionality into the browser UI, but neither seems likely to happen. I made IPvFoo to promote IPv6 adoption, and wouldn't consider selling it…

> roll this functionality into the browser UI,

Is it hard to get patches into firefox? I never tried, just curious.

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#127

Post by zokier »

dheera wrote: post #103
ceroxylon wrote: post #12

As someone who grew up on IPv4, i will miss it, but the leap to 340 undecillion unique addresses is exciting in many ways so i think i can learn to live with this transition. If we ever need more than that, i can't even imagine what that future would look like.

I grew up with IPv4 (1.2.3.4) and I was expecting IPv6 to just be 1.2.3.4.5.6 with backward compatibility so that 1.2.3.4 would just be 0.0.1.2.3.4 and the 1.2.3.4 dude wouldn't need to change their address. And the IPv8 would be 0.0.0.0.1.2.3.4 whenever we need it, but probably not for a long time When I saw all the double-colons and slashes and monstrosities like f00f:00f:::ea//dead::beef/3 I just kept using IPv4.…

There are endless protocols and methods which embed ipv4 addresses to ipv6 ones. RFC 4291 specifies exactly what you want, all-zero prefix+ipv4 address: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4291.html#section-2.5.5

See also the text representation section: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4291.html#section-2.2

   3. An alternative form that is sometimes more convenient when dealing
      with a mixed environment of IPv4 and IPv6 nodes is
      x:x:x:x:x:x:d.d.d.d, where the 'x's are the hexadecimal values of
      the six high-order 16-bit pieces of the address, and the 'd's are

      the decimal values of the four low-order 8-bit pieces of the
      address (standard IPv4 representation).  Examples:

         0:0:0:0:0:0:13.1.68.3

         0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:129.144.52.38

      or in compressed form:

         ::13.1.68.3

         ::FFFF:129.144.52.38
So in addition to having the addresses embedded on binary level, you even have that text notation that uses traditional ipv4 dot-notation!

You might ask why they are not more prevalent, but then you will find the practical issues that various transition mechanisms are attempting to solve.

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#128

Post by IcePic »

whatwhaaaaat wrote: post #89
Dwedit wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advantage: Not out of addresses.

We’ve been “running out of ipv4 space” since before i got a freakin us robotics modem.

Well, in the 90s, you would be able to get a /24 by just filling out some paperwork. How is it today, how easy and cheap can I get a /24 now? Is it two forms and an email?

The simple reason people have to start paying AWS for them is that it isn't easy or cheap for AWS to buy large ranges anymore. If it was just "fill out a form telling someone I need 4 million more IPs" then AWS would have some cheap junior technician doing that, but now they need to rake in money to cover the expenses to get IPs and customers that need v4 needs to pay for it.

You can check the rate of handing out v4 ips in 2012* and see that it was never going to be sustainable. The solution to the known-in-advance problem of ipv4 running out was not to .. not hand them out and just leave internet as it looked in Jan-2011 when IANA ran out of networks to hand out. So while it may be fun to state "I heard this long long ago", it just means others had better vision than you.

*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv4_address_exhaustion#/media...

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#129

Post by Uehreka »

dheera wrote: post #103
ceroxylon wrote: post #12

As someone who grew up on IPv4, i will miss it, but the leap to 340 undecillion unique addresses is exciting in many ways so i think i can learn to live with this transition. If we ever need more than that, i can't even imagine what that future would look like.

I grew up with IPv4 (1.2.3.4) and I was expecting IPv6 to just be 1.2.3.4.5.6 with backward compatibility so that 1.2.3.4 would just be 0.0.1.2.3.4 and the 1.2.3.4 dude wouldn't need to change their address. And the IPv8 would be 0.0.0.0.1.2.3.4 whenever we need it, but probably not for a long time When I saw all the double-colons and slashes and monstrosities like f00f:00f:::ea//dead::beef/3 I just kept using IPv4.…

Huh? IPv6 does have backwards-compatible-ish notation for writing IPv4 addresses. To take your example: 1.2.3.4 would be ::ffff:1.2.3.4, the 96-bit prefix indicated by ::ffff: is where all of the IPv4 addresses live in the larger IPv6 space.

If your issue is with the use of colons at all, they were a deliberate choice so that computers doing string processing could never confuse the two types of addresses.

Re: Tell HN: Hacker News now supports IPv6

#130

Post by conradfr »

dheera wrote: post #103
ceroxylon wrote: post #12

As someone who grew up on IPv4, i will miss it, but the leap to 340 undecillion unique addresses is exciting in many ways so i think i can learn to live with this transition. If we ever need more than that, i can't even imagine what that future would look like.

I grew up with IPv4 (1.2.3.4) and I was expecting IPv6 to just be 1.2.3.4.5.6 with backward compatibility so that 1.2.3.4 would just be 0.0.1.2.3.4 and the 1.2.3.4 dude wouldn't need to change their address. And the IPv8 would be 0.0.0.0.1.2.3.4 whenever we need it, but probably not for a long time When I saw all the double-colons and slashes and monstrosities like f00f:00f:::ea//dead::beef/3 I just kept using IPv4.…

It comes down to user experience.

How many people managing networks who knew their ip addresses by heart and typed it regularly for all kind of tasks were put off by the new format and decided, consciously or not, to wait until "I really have to deal with it"?

Some people get really angry when you point that out ;)

Good thing for IPv6 it didn't really have any competitor (except IPv4).

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