The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself • Hacker News Board

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#111

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:11 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #18

pawelwentpawel wrote: post #17

When asking Google - what the etymology of the "robot" word is, the answer is from Czech word "robota" which is they translate as "forced labor". While I don't speak Czech, I speak Polish which is a close cousin. For years it didn't occur to me that "robot" and the shortened "bot" words have slavic etymology. In Polish "robić" means to do (carry out, perform etc.) something. "Robię kawę" means "I'm making a coffee" a…

I've always read that it came from "robotnik" which just means "person who is doing something". And I agree, I'm also Polish and "robota" does not imply forced labour in the slightest, maybe it does in Czech but I doubt it given the close similarity between languages. It's quite common for people to say "Idę do roboty" which just means "I'm going to work"(as in - my place of employment).

Etymologically Czech is the most conservative here. In other Slavic languages and in Proto-Slavic the original meaning was also forced/compelled labor (hence also why "rab" or "rob" means "slave" and not "worker" in most East and South Slavic languages). It just happened to evolve into a generic term meaning "labor" because the forced/compelled kind was so widespread and normalized.

Slavic languages aren't the only ones with such a trajectory for the term - the German "Arbeit" is directly related and underwent a similar process.

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#112

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

pauke wrote: post #70

bee_rider wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there some historical reason for this? I vaguely remember that in English, we have words like “cattle,” French etymology, and “cow” Germanic, and the speculation is that it is because the aristocracy were French for much of England’s history (so, the French word is used to refer to cows as a sort of abstract resource to be considered in bulk).

I believe it's a similar thing. Semi-educated guess based on historical facts: Because of various (not least religious) reasons, Czech-speaking intelligentsia pretty much ceased to exist mid-17th century (fact, replaced by German/Latin) and only actual serfs spoke Czech, work and robota became defacto synonym (speculation). And when it became fashionable and cool to speak Czech 100-200 years later for the city-dwelle…

The evolution is the other way around - the original meaning of that root in proto-Slavic was obligatory work, and that one in turn is a derivative of a PIE word with the same meaning.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/o...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#113

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:24 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #38

pawelwentpawel wrote: post #17

When asking Google - what the etymology of the "robot" word is, the answer is from Czech word "robota" which is they translate as "forced labor". While I don't speak Czech, I speak Polish which is a close cousin. For years it didn't occur to me that "robot" and the shortened "bot" words have slavic etymology. In Polish "robić" means to do (carry out, perform etc.) something. "Robię kawę" means "I'm making a coffee" a…

It is sort of funny that when shortening it in English, we ended up with “bot,” dropping the “ro,” which looks like the more important part of the word.

Wouldn't be the first time. The English word "bus" is derived from a neologism "omnibus", "for all" (as in, "carriage for all") invented to describe the first attempts at mass transportation using horse carriages. In that word, "omni-" corresponds to "all", and "-bus" is just a suffix indicating dative declension of a plural noun.

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#114

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:27 PM UTC

thriftwy wrote: post #106

jefftk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

slave (n.) c. 1300, sclave, esclave, "person who is the chattel or property of another," from Old French esclave (13c.) and directly from Medieval Latin Sclavus "slave" (source also of Italian schiavo, French esclave, Spanish esclavo), originally "Slav" (see Slav); so used in this secondary sense because of the many Slavs sold into slavery by conquering peoples. https://www.etymonline.com/word/slave

The first part makes sense, the second one doesn't: where would that 'c' come from? No such thing as Sclavic people, never was. Nevertheless, I'm not sure if there is any reflection on the fact that mediterranean pirates (and nomadic tribes further east) plundered Balkans for captives and southwestern europeans then bought them. And that, perhaps, was a suboptimal way to behave.

It's not just the pirates, and not just Balkans, but also e.g. the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Crusades

As for why there's a "k" there - Greeks would naturally adapt any foreign word to the phonotactics of their language, which does not have "σλ" as a valid syllable onset, but does have "σκλ".

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#115

Post by thinkertraveler » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:35 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #110

thinkertraveler wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not derived, it's used - first by defeated.

> It's not. How is it not? One of your other comments sounds like you agree with the etymology jefftk cited? But that says the exact same thing. The word slav was first, and the word slave was made from it . Something being "propaganda" and "revenge" does not stop it from being the origin of a word. Edit: Oh, you elaborated slightly. > It's not derived, it's used - first by defeated. That's what derived means. They t…

the other word is used in such way only as sounds similar to the second but has different meaning

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#116

Post by agapon » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:40 PM UTC

rebolek wrote: post #22

gambiting wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always read that it came from "robotnik" which just means "person who is doing something". And I agree, I'm also Polish and "robota" does not imply forced labour in the slightest, maybe it does in Czech but I doubt it given the close similarity between languages. It's quite common for people to say "Idę do roboty" which just means "I'm going to work"(as in - my place of employment).

I'm Czech and while those two languages are close, "robota" is really forced work in Czech. What you called "robota" in Polish is called "práce" in Czech. In Czech, "Robota" is forced work and has bad connotations. See https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robota . It's interesting that this page doesn't have Polish translation.

Interesting that in Ukrainian робота and праця are synonymous. Although, some derived words are different in meaning. Like робітник is a worker but працівник is an employee. I see in another comment that the same is true in Polish.

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#117

Post by lajy » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 9:57 PM UTC

UncleSlacky wrote: post #96

jccalhoun wrote: post #95

I wonder when the english (at least American english) pronunciation of robot changed? I sometimes listen to old radio dramas as I fall asleep and the older the show the more likely they are to say "row butt" instead of "row bot."

Isaac Asimov used to say "row butt" but I can't think of anyone else who did/does.

The narrator on many episodes of How It's Made says "row butt"

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#118

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 10:27 PM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #95

I wonder when the english (at least American english) pronunciation of robot changed? I sometimes listen to old radio dramas as I fall asleep and the older the show the more likely they are to say "row butt" instead of "row bot."

I know more than a few people who pronounce it "row butt" today. I think it's a regional US dialect thing.

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#119

Post by lo_zamoyski » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 11:24 PM UTC

rebolek wrote: post #22

gambiting wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always read that it came from "robotnik" which just means "person who is doing something". And I agree, I'm also Polish and "robota" does not imply forced labour in the slightest, maybe it does in Czech but I doubt it given the close similarity between languages. It's quite common for people to say "Idę do roboty" which just means "I'm going to work"(as in - my place of employment).

I'm Czech and while those two languages are close, "robota" is really forced work in Czech. What you called "robota" in Polish is called "práce" in Czech. In Czech, "Robota" is forced work and has bad connotations. See https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robota . It's interesting that this page doesn't have Polish translation.

It is similar in Polish. “Robota” as a colloquialism is used to denote tedious, unpleasant, and labor-intensive labor (literally manual labor), and it has a coarse connotation, so it is often used in jest (“wracać do roboty” is something like “back to the salt mines”).

The typical and more genteel way to refer to work is “praca”. “Szukam pracę” is how you would typically say “I’m looking for work”, for example [0]; “ciężko pracuję” means “I work hard”. So while “robotnik” is better understood as specifically a manual laborer or someone of the working class, “pracownik” means something like “employee”.

[0] I am aware of the Czech false cognate “šukat” :).

Re: The man who coined the word "robot" defends himself

#120

Post by lo_zamoyski » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 11:29 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #111

gambiting wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always read that it came from "robotnik" which just means "person who is doing something". And I agree, I'm also Polish and "robota" does not imply forced labour in the slightest, maybe it does in Czech but I doubt it given the close similarity between languages. It's quite common for people to say "Idę do roboty" which just means "I'm going to work"(as in - my place of employment).

Etymologically Czech is the most conservative here. In other Slavic languages and in Proto-Slavic the original meaning was also forced/compelled labor (hence also why "rab" or "rob" means "slave" and not "worker" in most East and South Slavic languages). It just happened to evolve into a generic term meaning "labor" because the forced/compelled kind was so widespread and normalized. Slavic languages aren't the only o…

I would say that in Polish “robota” has a similar connotation. And “robol” describes a kind of low-level grunt. It’s definitely pejorative. “Praca” is the typical way to talk about work.