Live data from Hacker News

Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

nbcbayarea.com

161–170 of 191 posts

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#161

We had a kitchen redone with all "top-end" applicances. Sub-Zero fridge, wolf stove, Miele speed oven, etc. They are the most unreliable bunch of appliances I've ever owned, came out-of-the-box with defects. The Miele oven failed _on_. I noticed it was hot when I walked by it one day, even thought the controls were all off. It took a call to the US Consumer Product Safety Commission to get it fixed (and yes, they wer…

Sorry to hear about your kitchen, that sounds like a huge disappointment, ugh. I'm very surprised to hear that a Miele appliance failed so spectacularly. What did customer support have to say when you first reached out? I don't own any of their stuff but I've held them in very high regard based on what I've read & heard from others.

> I'm very surprised to hear that a Miele appliance failed so spectacularly. What did customer support have to say when you first reached out?

There are several circuit boards and a display/keypad board in the unit. The Miele factory repairman tried replacing each one (at a cost of about $1000 apiece) and it still didn't fix it! (The unit was out of warranty)

The actual culprit: The heating element behind the back (used for convection) is wired (in the US) to be between the two phases of the 220 volt line. One phase is always connected to one end of the element, the other side is switched. The element developed a fault somewhere in the middle and shorted to ground. (This line had no GFCI on it). So 110 volts was flowing through half the heating element at all times. We discovered this ourselves after the repairman left with the unit unfixed (they were "waiting for parts") and we looked at the circuit diagram he left behind.

The Milele repair technician didn't check for this--a $75 part that failed--and wanted to replace all the electronics inside.

We reported to the US Consumer Product Safety Commission because we thought this was a serious design defect and they did get involved. Miele conceded that they didn't need to replace thousands of dollars of circuit boards and display boards inside the product.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MBAs did it again! Your refrigerator was too reliable, so it had to be MBAed so you can keep buying new ones each year. Make MBAs illegal.

> MBAs did it again! Your refrigerator was too reliable, so it had to be MBAed so you can keep buying new ones each year. Should we blame individual MBAs, or the governments that create the market / regulatory environments that make such choices rational (or even necessary for survival)? E.g., governments could alter consumer-protection laws to make it financially unwise for a manufacturer to sell devices likely to f…

Every company that uses the MBA reductionist framework inevitably ends up scamming the customers, the employees, society, taxpayers, the environment, politics, and everything that exists.

It is a virus that eats reality and turns it into money.

If humanity is to survive, MBAs have to be outlawed and banished from any form of administration.

Draining everyone, that is what they exist for. Tax evasion, rampant corruption, loss of privacy, mass surveillance, ecocide, regular mass layoffs, low wages, perpetual war, greedflation, etc. Behind every problem, a MBA.

Without MBAs, we would be living on Mars. Instead, MBAs are marsforming earth.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it even realistic for a company to sell $1000 appliances that last 20 years? I know we can build such an appliance, because they did in the 80s, but can a public company survive selling them?

That it used to be the standard strongly indicates that yes, that's a realistic expectation. However, it isn't a path toward extracting every last dime from customer pockets. The real problem, in my opinion, is that companies no longer prioritize making good products, but making good pickpocketing machines.

Eh, when something goes extinct I'd say that's evidence that it isn't viable. That's the paradox of capitalism: anything that can be ruined eventually will be. I'd pay 2x or 3x for 30yr appliances for environmental reasons, but I don't think the company that makes such a thing could raise the capital to build them in the first place.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#164
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My samsung refrigerator slowly fills with water under the vegetable tray. It keeps a schedule that is pretty mysterious, so I just check it periodically to make sure it doesn't flood out onto the floor. In the winter it becomes ice for some reason, which actually is a lot more easy to clean out.

Your drain tube is freezing up. This can be fixed permanently by using a small copper wire to connect the heating element to the drain, for better heat conduction.

Yup, and this is what one of the class-action lawsuits is about. The problem is that on our model, that drain is behind glued-in molded styrofoam that also channels the air over the coils. It broke apart when removed. The plastic is also glued on and the fan is part of the styrofoam/plastic assembly. Samsung’s design uses just a thin Z-shaped finger of aluminum that sits in the drain, and it doesn’t do enough to prevent freezing. They made their fridges destined for landfills because they wanted to save $0.20 on thicker copper vs their lame little aluminum finger.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MBAs did it again! Your refrigerator was too reliable, so it had to be MBAed so you can keep buying new ones each year. Should we blame individual MBAs, or the governments that create the market / regulatory environments that make such choices rational (or even necessary for survival)? E.g., governments could alter consumer-protection laws to make it financially unwise for a manufacturer to sell devices likely to f…

Every company that uses the MBA reductionist framework inevitably ends up scamming the customers, the employees, society, taxpayers, the environment, politics, and everything that exists. It is a virus that eats reality and turns it into money. If humanity is to survive, MBAs have to be outlawed and banished from any form of administration. Draining everyone, that is what they exist for. Tax evasion, rampant corrupti…

I don't think your comment addresses my main point though.

Even if we outlawed MBAs, we'd still have a business environment in which companies that maximize their profitability potentially outcompete more customer-centric companies.

A profit-maximizing strategy potentially gives them more money, which in turn lets them lower their prices, ramp up faster in newer markets, etc.

I don't think it matters much whether or not people have MBAs. Market dynamics will exist regardless of whether we teach people about them.

I think your real complaint lies elsewhere in the system.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#166

How onerous are the US energy efficiency regulations on refrigerators, and how does that interact with longevity? Modern washing machines and dishwashers are famously terrible because of stringent water- and power-usage requirements, often trying to save 5% on water usage but performing so terribly that people re-wash or wash by hand, thereby wasting much more water not to mention human time. (Some court push back: h…

There does seem to be the worst-of-both-worlds scenario: EPA & regulatory agencies push for stringent regulations that make the appliances frustrating enough that people stop using them, but then those same agencies start begging people to use appliances cause hand-washing uses so much more water.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it used to be the standard strongly indicates that yes, that's a realistic expectation. However, it isn't a path toward extracting every last dime from customer pockets. The real problem, in my opinion, is that companies no longer prioritize making good products, but making good pickpocketing machines.

Eh, when something goes extinct I'd say that's evidence that it isn't viable. That's the paradox of capitalism: anything that can be ruined eventually will be. I'd pay 2x or 3x for 30yr appliances for environmental reasons, but I don't think the company that makes such a thing could raise the capital to build them in the first place.

> when something goes extinct I'd say that's evidence that it isn't viable.

It depends on the thing, but in general I don't think that assumption is terribly valid. The problem is that "viable" and "maximally profitable" are two different things. Companies have decided to chase the latter exclusively -- but that's a choice to satisfy short-term greed, it's not a reflection on what a viable business has to look like.

I think it's more reflective of how much the exercise of capitalism has degraded since those times.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#168
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's too bad, because the software and apps for them are far and above anything non-Korean. Not too important for a refrigerator, but it's important on ovens and microwaves. One tiny example: my brand-new JennAir wall-oven has remote start through it's phone app. Guess what? You have to enable "remote start" on the oven itself before the app works. Every single time! You can't just enable remote start on the oven o…

It's hard to cook when you're not in the kitchen, so it's not surprising that an excellent oven like JennAir skimps on what is at best a marginally useful marketing ploy.

> at best a marginally useful marketing ploy

Remote start was my first or second criterion when purchasing a new oven 2 months ago. It's not marketing.

> It's hard to cook when you're not in the kitchen

It's for preheating. I can save 15 minutes if I can remote start the oven. That's a big deal when you only have 2-3 hours between getting home and kids in bed. It's ok if we have different lives, but don't discount features important to me because of that.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#169
There is a real problem with appliances and repair: many repair shops don't seem to want to take on any sort of extensive repair. And I don't blame them...

The issue I've seen is, especially for out of warranty equipment, they're in a pretty tough spot: if they diagnose it as a part swap, and put a couple hours in diagnostics and part swap, and it doesn't fix it, the customer is unlikely to be happy with throwing that money away, and may not want to continue that process. So is the shop going to eat it?

For example: I have a Samsung inductive range. Love it. But, a couple years ago 2 of the elements stopped working. Unlike an old resistive range, the entire rangetop is a "sealed" unit, cost of probably north of a grand. Inside that unit are some boards and other items that can be replaced, but now you're talking another hour to get into. There are 3-4 boards in there, running $200-300 for the likely candidates.

In researching this, I found field repair techs were strongly recommending just replacing the whole range. Because the cost of a tech doing the repair is a grand+ plus a couple hours, or 4 hours and rolling the dice on which board needs replacement, possibly having to do it twice with house calls between hardware orders.

Or, the third option is to get a tech in that can disassemble the range and diagnose the likely bad solder joint and reflow it... That's the option I selected, because me and my 13yo son were the techs. BUT, no repair shop is going to want to risk doing that.

So, just throw away the range and get a new one is what they recommand.

Seems like a design or manufacturing flaw to me though. Probably should be a much bigger contact area if it's getting that hot that it's blowing the solder I thought it might be a cold joint, but I reflowed it pretty good the first time and it happened again.

Re: Expensive fridges are dying, leading to fraud claims

#170
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works for some things, but not others. For example, commercial laundry equipment comes from VERY FEW manufacturers, and you may never have heard of UniMac https://unimac.com/product/washer-extractors/uw-series-high-... but you probably have heard of their little brother, Speed Queen. Blendtec is another example. But some things are vastly different between commercial and residential. Commercial ovens often have…

Absolutely LOVE our Blendtec blendeer. That thing can chop up almost anything! My only regret is not getting the variant that came with a heating coil for making soups.

> Don’t breathe that
Post reply on HN