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Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

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Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how many, if any, are doing blue sky research (vs product-directed "research") any more the way that Bell Labs, IBM Watson and Xerox Parc used to do. Look at what's going on with ML/AI - DeepMind now merged with Google Brain seemingly with a product focus, FAIR now moved into a product group alongside Meta's GenAI group, Microsoft essentially outsourcing AI to OpenAI, OpenAI may as well call itself GPTCo…

The reason Bell Telephone built that organization is that they had a government-sanctioned monopoly on local phone service, and to justify the continuation of this, they wanted to find ways to show they were contributing to society. Could someone like Google or Microsoft build a Bell Labs today? Yes, almost certainly, but there's no financial incentive to do so. And the shareholders would not be pleased if you told t…

"A bigger question for the present is: why are the universities failing so badly? Their incentives have not changed, but we don't get the kind of innovative research we got out of Bell Labs."

In my opinion, professors at research universities have to contend with the pressures of raising grant money in a competitive environment combined with "publish or perish" pressures. Even post-tenure there are ways universities could punish "non-productive" faculty members at institutions where professors are regularly expected to publish at top journals/conferences and raise grant money. It's not that much different from the pressure their corporate research counterparts face, where they have to regularly justify their employment by producing a regular flow of research results that have business impact. This pressure to produce results on a regular schedule, whether in industry or in academia, is something that I strongly believe stifles science and forces scientists to make evolutionary "sure bets" instead of working on riskier, more revolutionary projects like the ones that Bell Labs and Xerox PARC researchers got to work on during those labs' heydays.

Alan Kay, who worked at Xerox PARC in the 1970s, has a lot to say about supporting long-term, revolutionary research here (http://worrydream.com/2017-12-30-alan/).

In my opinion, the simple answer is that we need institutions that provide researchers the freedom and space to work on riskier, longer-term projects, and we also need funding to support such research.

For my personal career, I'm reminded of this quote from physicist J. J. Thomson made over a century ago:

"Granting the importance of this pioneering research, how can it best be promoted? The method of direct endowment will not work, for if you pay a man a salary for doing research, he and you will want to have something to point to at the end of the year to show that the money has not been wasted. In promising work of the highest class, however, results do not come in this regular fashion, in fact years may pass without any tangible results being obtained, and the position of the paid worker would be very embarrassing and he would naturally take to work on a lower, or at any rate a different plane where he could be sure of getting year by year tangible results which would justify his salary. The position is this: You want this kind of research, but, if you pay a man to do it, it will drive him to research of a different kind. The only thing to do is to pay him for doing something else and give him enough leisure to do research for the love of it." (from https://archive.org/details/b29932208/page/198/mode/2up).

My career goal is to find a way to make a living outside of research that provides me enough time to do the research I want to do. This way I'm free from the pressures of either "publish or perish" from academia or "profit or perish" from industry.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how many, if any, are doing blue sky research (vs product-directed "research") any more the way that Bell Labs, IBM Watson and Xerox Parc used to do. Look at what's going on with ML/AI - DeepMind now merged with Google Brain seemingly with a product focus, FAIR now moved into a product group alongside Meta's GenAI group, Microsoft essentially outsourcing AI to OpenAI, OpenAI may as well call itself GPTCo…

The reason Bell Telephone built that organization is that they had a government-sanctioned monopoly on local phone service, and to justify the continuation of this, they wanted to find ways to show they were contributing to society. Could someone like Google or Microsoft build a Bell Labs today? Yes, almost certainly, but there's no financial incentive to do so. And the shareholders would not be pleased if you told t…

Agreed. The role of monopoly profits in funding pure research almost can’t be overstated. Similarly, the geographic monopolies of newspapers (before the Internet) funded quality journalism.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#123

The new home is still NJ: New Brunswick. > When Nokia’s research arm, Nokia Bell Labs, said in early December the company will move out of the Murray Hill campus over the next five years to relocate to a new tech hub being built in New Brunswick, the announcement spurred an outpouring of memories online from current and former employees. > Bell Labs’ new headquarters will be located at the HELIX innovation center in…

I got: Access Denied - GoDaddy Website Firewall Block reason: Access from your Country was disabled by the administrator. from Australia. I wonder why they'd block an entire country...

They likely just block non-us.

Geoblocks for no prticular reason a really sad, but widespread, practice.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#124

The new home is still NJ: New Brunswick. > When Nokia’s research arm, Nokia Bell Labs, said in early December the company will move out of the Murray Hill campus over the next five years to relocate to a new tech hub being built in New Brunswick, the announcement spurred an outpouring of memories online from current and former employees. > Bell Labs’ new headquarters will be located at the HELIX innovation center in…

I got: Access Denied - GoDaddy Website Firewall Block reason: Access from your Country was disabled by the administrator. from Australia. I wonder why they'd block an entire country...

It is also blocked for me, from South Africa.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#125

I'm currently halfway through The Idea Factory: Bell Labs & the Great Age of American Innovation by Jon Gertner. The stories and characters behind all the inventions and ideas are absolutely fascinating, as is the culture they cultivated there. Definitely recommended!

yes - really great book

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#126
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got: Access Denied - GoDaddy Website Firewall Block reason: Access from your Country was disabled by the administrator. from Australia. I wonder why they'd block an entire country...

They likely just block non-us. Geoblocks for no prticular reason a really sad, but widespread, practice.

(op here)

> They likely just block non-us.

Link was and is working for me here in the uk.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#127
post #51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a nostalgic person, but for some reason I wish irrationally that that Murray Hill building could be preserved as is. I read so much about of it in the history of computing, and just like (from the pictures) the building interior itself so much I just feel like I missed out on some thing not to have been there myself. I was lucky enough to work at Microsoft in building 2, one of 8 matching buildings from the m…

Any recommendations for books on the history of computing from that period?

Brian Kernighan's "Unix: A History and a Memoir" is an excellent read on the computer systems achievements of the labs through the eyes of someone who was at the center of it all.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#128
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that what happened is Bayh-Dole legislation passed c.1980 which allowed corporations to exclusively license patents generated with taxpayer funds at public and private universities, so they lost their incentive to maintain large privately-funded research centers, which used to be valuable because they'd have exclusive control of any patents. A side-effect of Bayh-Dole was the gradual conversion of academic in…

It's also the case that corporate labs that genuinely did research tended to be a byproduct of companies that were essentially monopolies to some degree in some way. Even if a bit idealized, Bell Labs was certainly like this. (From an old movie. Ma Bell: We don't care we don't have to we're the phone company.) At least some of the 80s vintage corporate labs like DEC were being increasingly folded into the broader eng…

Yeah, it's economics. Research labs can be allowed to be independent and do whatever experimental stuff when there are resources to go around, such as when you're holding an inalienable stranglehold on an entire sector of the economy. Every decade or so there's a good chance they lay you a golden egg but mostly they're just sitting there and going to conferences in Lapland or something. When someone in government goes 'wait a minute, this is terrible' and you become just a normal company again, you kill off what doesn't immediately contribute at the expense of some foresight.

Currently leading tech research? Google, Meta, Microsoft, Amazon, NVIDIA, Intel, and for some ungodly reason, Elon Musk with his government grants and Teslabucks. These are all effective monopolies in several sectors to the point where dethroning any of them is going to require either a massive change in the world through new technology or extensive multi-governmental legal action. These companies have the ability to spend a lot of money on something stupid (for the ones we have seen in the public eye, see Stadia, Metaverse, Itanium, we had Plan 9 as Bell's last hurrah into the void, these types of stupid things.) which loses it for the promise of an eventual golden egg. As a theory I'd say this is a pretty good one considering that it extends well into the modern day.

Ideally, we'd probably fund research in some better way, but I have no clue how the hell that would even work. Until then, the future comes in the form of price fixing and anti-competitive practices.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#129
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also the case that corporate labs that genuinely did research tended to be a byproduct of companies that were essentially monopolies to some degree in some way. Even if a bit idealized, Bell Labs was certainly like this. (From an old movie. Ma Bell: We don't care we don't have to we're the phone company.) At least some of the 80s vintage corporate labs like DEC were being increasingly folded into the broader eng…

Yeah, it's economics. Research labs can be allowed to be independent and do whatever experimental stuff when there are resources to go around, such as when you're holding an inalienable stranglehold on an entire sector of the economy. Every decade or so there's a good chance they lay you a golden egg but mostly they're just sitting there and going to conferences in Lapland or something. When someone in government goe…

Itanium I'd disagree on. It came out academia but Intel and HP really believed for whatever combination of reasons that it was the path forward although the approach had never worked before.

In general, the US probably does a decent job of funding research. Small scale research orgs within companies are often practical. There are company and government grants to both academia and commercial/academic partnerships. VCs, for their faults, do fund pretty speculative work.

For the reasons you say, big corporate research labs require conditions that are mostly not an unalloyed good at best.

Re: Remembering Bell Labs as legendary idea factory prepares to leave N.J. home

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about individuals, but there are quite a few people exposed to transactions costs via 401k/IRA/taxpayer funded pensions/etc.

I haven't incurred a trade in a 401k in a decade. Sub-milli liquidity is absolutely unnecessary for me.

Even making deposits into the account incurs transactions. Sure, speed doesn't matter here, but overhead does.
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